Live Broadcast Of Matches For MFC Members

[The Cameraman]

Originally Posted By: toddybad

Cameraman, I am actually thrilled to hear that you are alrady doing this as one of the difficulties being dealt with on the MyFC forums over the last few days was the issue of live video streaming - quotes of £20k per game (includes the actual broadband streaming) have been quoted. I'd suggest that if you are currently able to film the games and get all the action ON YOUR OWN then you are extremely well placed to profit from the MyFC project as we really need your skills.

Firstly, I am not already doing live streaming of EUFC Home games.
It was done once (3 years ago) by In The Box Media for Conference TV and I had nothing to do with the technical side of it and had no idea of how much In The Box had to pay for streaming it online. I was their freelance cameraman on the day and that was it.
I would imagine the quote you have had for 20k per game would be for top notch quality that would normally be associated with the streaming of Premiership clubs' footage.

Secondly, where you say I'd suggest that if you are currently able to film the games and get all the action ON YOUR OWN then you are extremely well placed to profit from the MyFC project as we really need your skills., there is absolutely no doubt about that, and other club cameramen will probably be very envious of me at the moment.

However, profiting from something that about 95% of existing EUFC supporters seem to be dead against fills me with a lot of unease...but then I cannot afford to relinquish my job and let MyFC bring somebody else in to do it.

[toddybad]

It's a difficult one for you though I'd imagine the urrent fans wouldn't be able to blame you whatever you decide but I cannot see us getting rid of you without you asking. That said, it sounds like you are not an employee of the club as such and so may not be protected in the same way - I'll raise this on the MyFC forum when its back up and running (crashed due to huge volume of traffic) and let you know what people make of the situation.

[The Cameraman]

Originally Posted By: Slartibartfast

I don't know all the leagal ins and outs but don't Setanta have the rights to all the Conference matches?

According to the Conference, Setanta only have the broadcasting rights for TV, not for the internet.
There are several Blue Square Premier clubs showing highlights of Home matches on their websites already this season.
They were not allowed to do that last season because the now-defunct Conference TV had the internet rights.

[rsheard]

Originally Posted By: leebee

in my opinion, any fan who consistantly can't make a home game isn't a real fan again

So you wouldn't consider AFF a real fan? I think such narrow definitions get us nowhere.

Who has the right to define for anyone else how committed his fanaticism must be? If after 5 years, I've watched every single match, groaned and cheered with every single goal, and yet for unforeseen circumstances haven't been able to attend regular home matches, I'm not a fan? Total rubbish.

[AF_Fulham]

Originally Posted By: The Cameraman

A MFC member posted an hour or so ago (on what is now a locked thread) that 'Ebbsfleet games are (apparently) going to be shown live on the website and the new fans will have the chance to see the team regularly if they can't make the game'.
Can I ask where it says that ?
It's news to me !

Live streaming of Home matches on the Internet direct from the gantry can certainly be done, and it won't infringe on Setanta's TV broadcasting deal....but it will cost a fair bit. A few hundred quid per match at least I would imagine.
The (broadband ?) cable is up on the gantry already, but it was last used about 3 years ago when I did a live game with a crew from Conference TV. Some guy came up there and plugged in from my camera to a laptop. They brought a commentator along as well.
Unfortunately, we wouldn't be able to do this for Away matches though.

If live broadcasts of Home matches have already been arranged without my knowledge though, then I am presumably going to be losing my job ?

Another comment by a MFC member was that they will be given access to view the Manager's unedited Match DVD in order to scrutinise players' performances and pick the team.
Well if that's the case, (and I am still filming for the club), I will want some sort of compensation payment, otherwise it will be an infrigement of my copyright if that DVD is copied and distributed to others without my consent.

Depends if you are an employee i guess! If your an employee of the company or otherwise contracted to produce services, then i'm afraid you won't likely have copy rights. Sorry.

[AF_Fulham]

Originally Posted By: The Cameraman

For the benefit of MFC people and others who don't know me, I am a professional cameraman hired by both Ebbsfleet United and Grays Athletic F.C. to film all their First Team Home matches for the Team Managers, provide footage to Setanta (if paid to do so), and produce Match and/or End-Of-Season Review DVD's for the supporters if the demand is there.
I am not an Ebbsfleet supporter and I am not a Grays supporter. I just provide a service to both clubs and to Non-League Football Clubs in general.

Yes, a pay-per-view set-up to put highlights on the club website was briefly discussed by myself and club officials earlier this season. This is something I am willing to help with if paid appropriately for the use of my footage. The same goes for streaming matches live if it can be done.

I don't think there is a problem legally in showing Blue Square Premier matches live on the internet at 3.00.p.m. on a Saturday afternoon, as Setanta only have the TV broadcasting rights and not the internet broadcasting rights. However, this needs to be fully investigated.

Then i'm afriad your screwed. If your hired to provide a service for the club, then normal employment law would imply that the product of the services you render i.e 'the footage' is the property of the club and not yours. You retain no rights to it.

[FleetFanatic]

Indeed, don't the club own the copyright.....

[AF_Fulham]

Originally Posted By: FleetFanatic

Indeed, don't the club own the copyright.....

Simply: yep, they do.

[The Cameraman]

Originally Posted By: toddybad

It's a difficult one for you though I'd imagine the urrent fans wouldn't be able to blame you whatever you decide but I cannot see us getting rid of you without you asking. That said, it sounds like you are not an employee of the club as such and so may not be protected in the same way - I'll raise this on the MyFC forum when its back up and running (crashed due to huge volume of traffic) and let you know what people make of the situation.

That's correct. I am not an employee of the club.
I am paid by the club to provide a service that I specialise in.
What MyFC members need to understand is that it takes a great deal of practice and experience to film a football match properly, especially at the speed the game is played in the Blue Square Premier, so if they voted me out and brought in somebody who has never filmed a game of football in their life before, the footage would probably be unwatchable and of no help to anybody.

[darling]

Whether the club owns the copyright depends entirely on Cameraman's agreement with them. Absent an agreement to the contrary, Cameraman owns the copyright because he makes the film.

 

Obviously, it's in the club's interest to own the copyright. Even if Cameraman isn't an employee, I'm sure Cameraman and the club could come to a mutual agreement.

[AF_Fulham]

Originally Posted By: The Cameraman

That's correct. I am not an employee of the club.
I am paid by the club to provide a service that I specialise in.
What MyFC members need to understand is that it takes a great deal of practice and experience to film a football match properly, especially at the speed the game is played in the Blue Square Premier, so if they voted me out and brought in somebody who has never filmed a game of football in their life before, the footage would probably be unwatchable and of no help to anybody.

Then defo you have no copyright. As what you produce is owned by the club (unless your contract of services states otherwise). As a MyFC member, i guess the best consolation I can give you is that we (MyFC) are not looking to change the set-up in the back of house operation. What i would suggest is that you speak to your direct line manager and negotiate a suitable arrangement.

And as a sympathetic owner, i'd be happy to offer any employment law advice (within my experience) on a pro bono basis. Just private message me.

[The Cameraman]

Originally Posted By: AF_Fulham

Originally Posted By: FleetFanatic

Indeed, don't the club own the copyright.....

Simply: yep, they do.

Sorry mate. You are wrong, and this is something that all Blue Square Premier Club cameramen have been disputing with the Conference since the season started.

None of us are employed by the clubs.
We are hired by the clubs as freelance cameramen, and as such, we are the authors of the footage and therefore the copyright holders.

This is English law and any attempt to broadcast Club cameramen's authorings without prior consent/arrangement would contravene both the Design & Patent Act 1984 and the Copyright Act 1988.

[AF_Fulham]

Originally Posted By: darling

Whether the club owns the copyright depends entirely on Cameraman's agreement with them. Absent an agreement to the contrary, Cameraman owns the copyright because he makes the film.

Obviously, it's in the club's interest to own the copyright. Even if Cameraman isn't an employee, I'm sure Cameraman and the club could come to a mutual agreement.

Actually that's false. The legal assumption is that the club owns the goods or services produced unless otherwise agreed.

[toddybad]

well forgetting the totally irrelevant copyright issue i can't imagine for a second the MyFC membership would vote you out chap, the only issue is how the webteam are proposing to put together the streaming package.

 

Just for you I have just posted a thread on the MyFC forum advising them you exist and asking whether they can keep you on to do the films. We'll both have to see in the end though as I only have a teenie weenie bit of power (like 0.0005%).

[doheochai]

Originally Posted By: The Cameraman

That's correct. I am not an employee of the club.
I am paid by the club to provide a service that I specialise in.
What MyFC members need to understand is that it takes a great deal of practice and experience to film a football match properly, especially at the speed the game is played in the Blue Square Premier, so if they voted me out and brought in somebody who has never filmed a game of football in their life before, the footage would probably be unwatchable and of no help to anybody.

Cameraman - can I suggest that you contact MyFC at contactus@myfootballclub.co.uk outline your current situation etc. and ask them for a meeting to discuss what possibilites exist in relation to this. The Team that run MyFC are very approachable and open. While live streaming has been discussed it is still in the 'discussion' phase and nothing concrete has been decided. On the current balance of things I think it unlikely that live streaming will go ahead as I don't think enough people will take up the service. Either way video footage will have to be provided for the membership as it is an important part of the decision-making process.

By the way - sorry for the rather sharp comment earlier about self-interest, its been a long day and I wasn't being my usual diplomatic self.

[AF_Fulham]

Originally Posted By: The Cameraman

Originally Posted By: AF_Fulham

Originally Posted By: FleetFanatic

Indeed, don't the club own the copyright.....

Simply: yep, they do.

Sorry mate. You are wrong, and this is something that all Blue Square Premier Club cameramen have been disputing with the Conference since the season started.

None of us are employed by the clubs.
We are hired by the clubs as freelance cameramen, and as such, we are the authors of the footage and therefore the copyright holders.

This is English law and any attempt to broadcast Club cameramen's authorings without prior consent/arrangement would contravene both the Design & Patent Act 1984 and the Copyright Act 1988.

I know the employment law you mention. As you are contracted to the club on a freelance basis, I would ASSUME that the club has a basic 'terms of service' agreement with you. More tellingly if an agreement did not exist.. Then the club would have reasonable grounds(as they paid you a fee) to assume that the services rendered whilst in their 'employment' (which would also clasify a freelancer) are the property of the club as they paid a fee for the services and indeed let you perform your services on their property.

I would suggest that if you do not have an agreement that reserves your explicit rights to property/produce then the assumption in law will be that the company retain the rights.

It's probably why no lawyer has taken up your cause as a 'class action'.

Only my opinion though.

[The Cameraman]

Blimey, there's loads of postings to reply to here !

 

Firstly, can I ask as to when this is all supposed to be taking effect as regards my position ?

 

My agreement with the club is quite simple really.

 

I am paid £60.00 per match to film and produce two unedited copies for the Team Managers on the gantry which are then handed in at the Office on the final whistle.

These copies are not for reproduction by the club or for passing on to TV and/or internet companies as I am the author and the copyright holder and have not given them my permission to do so...because they are not paying me the amount I would require for them to do so.

Having said that, a Manager's DVD of my footage has just been shown on national and worldwide TV bulletins today without my permission and without me getting paid for that to happen, but I will let them off on this occasion !

 

For providing footage to Setanta, I should be paid £150 per match by Setanta, but due to a [****!!****]-up by the Conference, the clubs are having to pay their cameramen Setanta's fees out of their sponsorship money. In virtually all cases (including Ebbsfleet), the cameramen have had to compromise and are being paid far less than that, which we are all incensed about, but it is not the clubs' fault.

 

If the club want to show my footage as highlights on the internet, I charge an extra £50.00 per match for that.

If it's a live game I am filming for the Internet, I would want an extra £100.00 match...that's assuming all I am doing is filming the match and not messing about with a laptop at the same time.

 

If the club want to sell DVD's to supporters, then I edit & produce them (with slo-mo replays, titles, transitions, commentary or whatever) and take a cut of the profits. Normally, they would retail at £11.00 each (as per DVD's listed on my website) and I would charge the club shop between £7.00 - £8.50 per copy, depending on the quantities ordered.

 

However, if 20,000 people need to see Match DVD's pretty much straight after a game, then that is logistically impossible, even if they were getting straightforward unedited copies from the camera master tapes (as the Manager does).

How are MyFC members in the U.S. going to see these DVD's if there is no live streaming on the internet ?

 

By the way, please note that these prices are far cheaper than that which video companies who normally do weddings and corporate stuff would quote.

[The Cameraman]

Another thing is that the next Home game (against Stafford Rangers on the 24th November) is undoubtedly going to see a number of TV cameramen from different stations (including some from abroad) all wanting to get up in the gantry and film the game.

 

There is really only room for one cameraman up there because it is too tight to the touchline and we get in each other's way otherwise.

 

If I am given sole rights to use the gantry and these TV cameramen/companies want to use my footage, then I will want paying appropriately by those companies for doing their jobs for them.

That's how it works in the TV industry.

The club only pay me for what I am doing for them...which is £60.00 for the Managers copies.

[doheochai]

As I said earlier Cameraman - send Will Brooks an email and have a discussion with him. See whats in the pipeline.

[The Cameraman]

Originally Posted By: doheochai

As I said earlier Cameraman - send Will Brooks an email and have a discussion with him. See whats in the pipeline.

Just before I go to bed and try and get some sleep (which will probably be impossible ), I will do that after I have heard from Roly Edwards (the EUFC Club Secretary), as he is my current point of contact.
Once Roly (or anybody else in an official position at the club) tells me I am now dealing with Will Brooks instead, then I will do that.

Best be on the safe side and not jump into things head-first here.