And I thought Doctores...............

[Big J R]

.............. were supposed to preserve life !

 

So much for the Hypocratic oath and Muslim doctors.

 

Just ship 'em all home !

[Eastside Urchin]

Agreed,about time we got tough and realised we are under serious threat.

Even i will not admit this is a conspiracy by the government,anymore!!!

[NotTheRealSteveWest]

it's doctors you idiot.... there is no e.

[American FLEET FAN No1]

Originally Posted By: Westie

it's doctors you idiot.... there is no e.

Uh oh..........Calling JR an idiot..........

[Moo]

Time to duck and cover before BJR reads that one!

[Bitch]

Originally Posted By: Westie

it's doctors you idiot.... there is no e.

Quite right Westie, you don't need drugs

[Greg_Dyke]

I think I must have missed something in the news...

 

[NotTheRealSteveWest]

Hi BigJR!

[Big J R]

E, by Gum !

 

I've just caught up on yesterdays papers and there's a picture of a security man at Glasgow Airport hosing the 'Doctor' down, who was on fire after setting his 'bomb' off !

 

Personally, I'd have let the fecker burn !

[American FLEET FAN No1]

No you wouldn't John..........You would have poured petrol over him......And helped him burn!

[Big J R]

FECK ME !

 

All 8 of the b@stards are or were employees of the N.H.S.

 

Says loads for our National Security Service, dunnit ?

[Eastside Urchin]

i was in the hospital on sunday and out of about 15 nurses/doctors all were of asian original(mainly phillipino) and one was irish.

Either we can't produce nurses/doctors or they are cheaper which means its just another proffesion where we import people in and the people already in this country can't get jobs because these nurses are willing to take crap wages.I mean how can a nurse afford to live anywhere near london on minimum wages.

[Burnham Lad]

Thing is, thanks to that idiot Hewitt, we have a large number of junior doctors, (which can mean up to eight years after first qualifying), who currently don't have a job. These are the folks who keep our hospitals running, with the support of the Nursing Staff.

 

Quote:

The BMA predicts that around 12,000 doctors will be left without specialist training posts once the entire recruitment process ends.

 

Dr Everington said: 'Thousands of juniors still have no idea whether they can continue their professional training after August 1 2007.

 

"We hear every day about highly talented junior doctors who may seek their futures abroad now that their careers appear blighted by this crisis.

 

"Many valuable junior doctors are considering leaving medicine altogether. What a scandal and loss to the Health Service" he added.

 

It is ridiculous we are hiring people who want to blow us up, when loads of doctors trained in this country are unable to get a job.

 

The Government haven't got a clue!

[Greg_Dyke]

Originally Posted By: urchin_mentalist

i was in the hospital on sunday and out of about 15 nurses/doctors all were of asian original(mainly phillipino) and one was irish.
Either we can't produce nurses/doctors or they are cheaper which means its just another proffesion where we import people in and the people already in this country can't get jobs because these nurses are willing to take crap wages.I mean how can a nurse afford to live anywhere near london on minimum wages.

maybe if we paid Nurses, and medical staff a decent wage during the 80s, 90s and 00s, we wouldnt need to fill gaps in the NHS with applicants from abroad.
The whole medical profession is full of workers with low esteem. Successive governments havent valued them, society doesnt value them and for the auxillary workers (porters, cleaners, etc) it's even worse.

With low pay comes low quality....I am afraid, hence the lower standards today in the NHS
The answer in my simple mind, is clear.
Thin out the middle management level. Let Nurses nurse and let a few dedicated managers manage staff and resources, rather than the whole layer of middle manbagers we have now.

[The Invisible Man]

Agreed, up to a point. Yes, the medical professions should be held in high esteem and rewarded appropriately - including decent conditions, hours etc. as well as salary of course. THere can be no question that 'management' - ho ho, a bunch of inky fingered clerks and pompous penpushers and Excel whizzes - should be culled not only numerically but in terms of power too.

 

But as I understand it, and as the clip somewhere above indicates, we have something like 12000 doctors unable to find employment! Let's employ them before staff from abroad, eh?

 

This of course is a general point, nothing to do with the 'bombers'. On that matter, I agree that security is alarmingly (but unsurprisingly) slack. So even if they weren't terrorists, how rigorously are their CVs and qualifications checked?

[Greg_Dyke]

Quote:

The BMA predicts that around 12,000 doctors will be left without specialist training posts once the entire recruitment process ends.

 

 

that was the quote, I dont think you can use that in any argument !

(1) It's a prediction !

(2) Though qualified some who have undergone training wont seek employment in the medical profession, never mind the "specialist training posts" that the quote suggests

[Burnham Lad]

Originally Posted By: Greg_Dyke

Quote:
The BMA predicts that around 12,000 doctors will be left without specialist training posts once the entire recruitment process ends.


that was the quote, I dont think you can use that in any argument !
(1) It's a prediction !
(2) Though qualified some who have undergone training wont seek employment in the medical profession, never mind the "specialist training posts" that the quote suggests

So what are you saying - there is no problem with the junior doctors situation and that the BMA know less what they are talking about than Patricia Hewitt who was forced to apologise and quit before she got the sack? (Gordon Brown apparently remarked in the week before he became PM " Do I have to sit here and let her lose me the next election", or words to that effect)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your point (2). The greater majority need to continue their training up to becoming a consultant or by moving into General Practice rather than leave medicine. The system was intended to shorten Doctors training from 14 years to 11, but they cut the budget so there were less jobs available when due to the changes it meant there were more applicants than normal to apply for them, so many who wanted to continue training still will be faced with taking a lesser job without any training, becoming a locum or to go to another country to complete their training. My point was why are we forcing people trained here out and recruiting doctors from overseas?

[Simon BTFC]

I don't think you should confuse the utter mess the government made of the reforms of the training of junior doctors with the "coming over here and taking our jobs" argument... There are something like 90,000 overseas trained doctors in the UK, kick them all out and you'd have a shortfall of 78000. I know that's a crude sum, but it brings me on to my main rant...

 

For me this is a symptom of the failings of the British government over the past 30 years to ensure that we remain a world leader in science, engineering and medicine. (Before anyone asks I hold Thatcher every bit as responsible as Blair - this is non party political for me). I work for a pharmaceutical company and when we advertise for scientists or pharmacists we just don't get white brits applying.

 

I'll give you 2 reasons why this is for me: Money and Attitude

 

1) Money. It should be a national disgrace that good quality university physics and chemistry departments are closing. it should be a national disgrace that 1,000,000 kids are taught physics by a teacher with no physics qualification ( source of stats ) But it isn't. Lack of investment over the past 30 years has left the teaching of sciences in an absolute mess. It is an inescapable fact that it costs more for a child to gain a gcse in chemistry than in PE, but which is going to repay it's cost in a boost to british industry? I guess like many kids I was taught science (early 90s) in run-down class-rooms with ancient, out-of date equipment.

 

2) Attitude. There is a myth prevalent at all levels of education that all subjects are equal. They're not. Employers know it, experienced workers know it and I think deep down the pupils know it. And yet (and I'm talking mainly about uni here) we allow too many to take the easy way out. The reality is that a qualification in medicine, engineering or science is hard work. A lot harder than some poncy arts degree and a hell of a lot more useful, yet we allow too many people to waste three years gaining a worthless qualification.

 

The reason that Britain is having to rely on foreign nationals (and make no mistake about we'd be in a hell of a bigger mess if we kicked them all out) for our needs in medicine, science and engineering is because we are not producing home-grown talent with the right qualifications.

 

Rant over, I'm off down the pub...

 

[Greg_Dyke]

Originally Posted By: Andrew S

So what are you saying - there is no problem with the junior doctors situation and that the BMA know less what they are talking about than Patricia Hewitt who was forced to apologise and quit before she got the sack? (Gordon Brown apparently remarked in the week before he became PM " Do I have to sit here and let her lose me the next election", or words to that effect)

I'm not sure what you are trying to say with your point (2). The greater majority need to continue their training up to becoming a consultant or by moving into General Practice rather than leave medicine. The system was intended to shorten Doctors training from 14 years to 11, but they cut the budget so there were less jobs available when due to the changes it meant there were more applicants than normal to apply for them, so many who wanted to continue training still will be faced with taking a lesser job without any training, becoming a locum or to go to another country to complete their training. My point was why are we forcing people trained here out and recruiting doctors from overseas?

I am broadly agreeing with Simon..
I do not think its a disgrace that we have so many overseas workers in the NHS, I think its a natural by product of low pay and low esteem.
I do not think the BMAs stats are factually accurate...there are lies, lies and damn statistics after all...you can prove anything with statistics.
I do think there should be more jobs for doctors and less for managerial admin staff within the NHS

[The Invisible Man]

Agree with Simon.

 

It's a disgrace that there is low pay and low esteem for our health professionals (and many others).

 

I do not know th esource of the BMA stats but they're probably more reliable than government figures.

 

Agree - more doctors and nurses, and more power i.e. decision making, to them, not to suit wearers.