point of interest for U16'S Eastern Junior Alliance teams and Supporters

[zody]

Under Sixteen

Rule 10.G

Roll on roll off Substitutions

Clarification to Referees and Clubs

 

To stop confusion on how this system is supposed to work. A decision has been taken to alter the ruling on the amount of substitutes you may use.

 

The rule states that you may use any three from five named substitutes. To stop all the confusion it will now be five from five named substitutes. This decision has been taken to help alleviate the problems with the time the referee spends trying to sort out who has and has not been used as a substitute.

 

When a player has been substituted he then becomes a substitute allowing him to be used to substitute a player being taken off. This Ruling if taken literally will mean that you can make substitutions as often as you wish. Please do not abuse this Rule by changing players every five to ten minutes.

[Football Man]

Where did you get this rule change from? No-one at the EJA has told me. My understanding is that you can make three subs from five but the second or third sub can be a player that came off earlier in the game. I am not aware about being able to make five changes in a game.

[zody]

I got this from our under 16's manager, if you send me by PM your email address and a mobile number I will forward you Robo's details to have a chat with him,

[NotTheRealSteveWest]

Have you got it wrong again Zogy?

[coupwotcoup]

Too much information again mate!!

[zody]

nope ntrsw

[coach et 64]

i knew from last week that we were allowed to use all the five subs roll on and off.i think is great and allow you to use every player.centre of excellence and academies have been doing this for ages.we played cambridge city away in this micky mouse cup called chairman's cup and all players got a game:just find the balance between giving a game to everyone and getting results.in the driving seat for most of the game,we ended up loosing 3-2.two players moaned about the changes and they have been reminded about the importance of giving a game to everyone and having a group of 16-18 players all able to compete for places.you are as good as the players that you have on the bench and personally i spend more time looking after the ones left out than the ones

that are starting the game.you'll never win anything playing always the same 11 players and over a season you'll need every single one of them:make sure they feel trusted and they won't let you down.

[zody]

Glad it is working for you Coach, Robo had sent it to me last week but was busy so hence delay in posting it, but yes it is a great rule and different game plan can be used throughout the match. good luck this weekend

[coach et 64]

yeah,we will need that!we are playing our friends from Dagenham away.got a bye in the county cup and we re-arranged a game with them.might be one of the few games where you have got to play your best 11? big dilemma,but who are your best 11? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Football Man]

Sorry, but I don't really see the point of having roll-on, roll-off subs at all. I agree that every boy in the squad should get a game but if a boy doesn't start one week you pick him the next, as simple as that.

 

Chopping and changing players throughout a game does not help with team pattern, breaks the flow of the match and makes it difficult for a player to impress during a game with constant changes happening around him (watch the second half of any England friendly for an example). Therefore, it does not help the players to develop their team skills fully and one of the points behind playing competitive sport at this level is to see how well youngsters can play as part of a team, regardless of their ability as individuals.

 

Players won't be able to roll-on roll-off at U18 level and beyond so why do it at U16 level? It also means that 10 of the selected 16 players are unlikely to play a full 90 minutes, something they should now be getting used to if they are to progress to higher levels as an important part of the development of young players is increasing their stamina and this rule doesn't help with that. If they want to make it big with a League or Premiership club (or even just break into their own first team), they will have to get used to playing non stop. Coming off for a 15-20 minute breather then coming back on as a sub again is too much of a luxury and a habit that players can't afford to be getting into.

 

I know this is an FA rule and not an EJA one, but it has the potential to severely stifle the development of young players.

[coach et 64]

you'll never pick that boy the following week because you won the game and won't change a winning team. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />everyone is entitled to his opinions but there will be games during the season when you haven't got your" best players"and you'll look at who you have got to replace them but none of them is ready because played 10 minutes only every game and his "development has been stifled" and what you are gonna do? call the other manager and call the game off because you don't want lose "important points".but the only thing you'll lose is the respect of those players.more important those boys get disillusioned and will away from the best

sport in the world.I can see your point but after all is only a game where everyone has the right to

play it.

[Football Man]

Quote:

coach et 64 said:
I can see your point but after all is only a game where everyone has the right to
play it.

That's exactly why I said that the boy who doesn't start one week, should start the next. That is a much fairer way of ensuring everyone not only gets to play but is given a fair chance to show what he can do than giving some boys 10-15 minutes as a sub every week.

At youth level, you should be putting your best side out in the County Cup (and FA Youth Cup at U18 level) as these are the games that bring prestige upon the club. In every other youth match, the development of the player is more important than results. Obviously, it is nice if you can be playing in a winning side every week, but you can learn a lot more about a player by seeing how he reacts to the previous week's defeat or how he reacts to being left out if he was in a winning side the week before. Players need to have the character and the determination as well as the skill. They don't learn about these traits if they are guaranteed a few minutes in every game. That is why the whole idea is stifling to player development.

[coach et 64]

i come from a country where the five subs on and off are used from the age of 11 up to u'18s and has been like this for 15 years.at u'7s till u'11s you have got play all of them at least half a game otherwise you get fined or points deducted.is that the reason why we won 5 u'21s european championships in this period of time? <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/pipe.gif" alt="" />

[zody]

well done , if it works dont fix it what isnt broken I say

[cider]

Quote:

Potters Bar Town FC said:

Quote:

coach et 64 said:
I can see your point but after all is only a game where everyone has the right to
play it.

That's exactly why I said that the boy who doesn't start one week, should start the next. That is a much fairer way of ensuring everyone not only gets to play but is given a fair chance to show what he can do than giving some boys 10-15 minutes as a sub every week.

At youth level, you should be putting your best side out in the County Cup (and FA Youth Cup at U18 level) as these are the games that bring prestige upon the club. In every other youth match, the development of the player is more important than results. Obviously, it is nice if you can be playing in a winning side every week, but you can learn a lot more about a player by seeing how he reacts to the previous week's defeat or how he reacts to being left out if he was in a winning side the week before. Players need to have the character and the determination as well as the skill. They don't learn about these traits if they are guaranteed a few minutes in every game. That is why the whole idea is stifling to player development.

Very interesting debate.Being a manager of a resrve or youth team is a thankless task.Is the priority development of players for the first team or gaining success for their relevent teams.How many times have you seen a successful reserve team manager sacked because he is not bringing players through but he is top of the league.

Why not try playing quarters or thirds in these games if the result is not the priority?Maybe it would solve the roll on roll off problems.
Had a conversation with john Cartwright once regarding this and he could not understand why their were league tables for the u/17 u/19 premiership clubs. First question that the people in question asked was ,How did you get on today?not which players did well.Food for thought.

[Golden Boots]

player performance and development of players should always take priority over results as i imagine Coach et 64 would agree, the job of a youth and reserve manager is to develop players that are good enough to play first team football, in a game you may lose 2-1 but still have 6 players play exceptionally well. a club needs to have a choice of one or the other, team sucess in results or succesful player development?? most reserve team managers from the ESl upwards are capable of assembling a squad at reserve level to win the league they are in, but this team would produce a low yield of players for the 1st team, on the other hand they can produce a young side who will push for 1st team spots but may not fare so well in league competitions.

 

 

as for academy sides, speaking from a players perspective, the first question from the reserve team management at leyton orient after an u17's game was, who played well??? the question from club officials (chairman, patrons) was what was the score, did we win??

 

managers are often caught in conflict between 2 aspects of doing their job, ie developing players and on the other hand keeping the board of directors happy.

[coach et 64]

thanks Mike,i can see you appreciate the kind of philosophy i'm trying to instill at the club i work for.seeing a 16 and a 17 years old player being called and starting a game for the first team(herman and luke) after only a handful of matches in the reserves is a satisfaction and as you said you can have a young side that is not winning anything (still to see yet)but will push quite a few young players through.there is a lot of crap that you have to put up with but i'm old enough and able to handle it,first because the rewards outweight the bad things and second being a coach i'm more concerned about performances and players taking things on board.time will tell who is going to laugh last. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/pipe.gif" alt="" />

[Football Man]

My first question is usually "what was the score?". But this is only because I need the info to update the website, programme, etc. My biggest concern is who played well and who is developing within the squad. It cannot be assumed that asking for the score first means a lack of genuine interest in the right areas of youth football. Running a club is a many faceted thing and everything has to be taken into account. A club chairman may ask what the score was because he feels that a winning side is a confident side, or it may simply be a way of beginning a conversation with the youth manager about the game. I wouldn't jump to too many conclusions based on what the first question of a club officer is.

 

Regarding the earlier point about winning the European U21 Championship, the point of youth football is not to produce successful U21 sides. Coach et 64, how many major trophies have your main national side gone on to win?

[coach et 64]

certainly more than your national side managed by a swedish manager that the first ten years in italy with fiorentina,sampdoria and roma won nearly nought and was called "the loser" <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> don't start three stars are more than one...the same as five word cup finals versus one <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Football Man]

I take it you concede to my point then?