To go full time or not?

[Hempstead Gaz]

On a previous thread, I stated the following:

"Unlike other clubs in the Conference we are not a sleeping giant, but thanks to Mr Blair and the Thames Gateway development we have as much potential most clubs outside of the Premiership.

However, to take advantage of this golden opportunity, we neen to tap into the community urgently, to enhance our chances of full time football, increased attendances, a new stadium and ultimately promotion into the football league.

Slow and sure may get there in 10 - 15 years, but we have the chance in the next 5 years to do all of these things IF the board have courage, vision and foresight to get things moving this and next year.

If we don't I can see events overtaking us andit all going horribly wrong, getting relegated, Gillingham building a new ground next door,stealing our fans and us eventually going bust or playing the likes of Erith, Dartford and Sittingbourne in front of crowds of 350 like in the "sad old days".

 

I need to expand on this.

Long term success is now within our reach, but it does require a certain gamble by the board.

Looking at previous efforts by Kent clubs in Conference football, all have had success in early years, Maidstone, Us in the 79/80 season, Wellling, Margate, Dover.

In all cases poor decisions at boardroom level prevented them making a long term impact on challenging Gillingham as Kents top club.

Both Welling and Dover chose not to go full time when they were within reach of doing so - both have struggled since.

Maidstone and Margit both made errors regarding their stadiums (or lack of them).

We are so near yet so far.

Full time players could train, etc for 4 hours in the morning, then go out to schools, colleges in the afternoon coaching and spreading the Fleet gospel as they go, giving out complemantary child tickets when accompanied by paying adult. They are being paid for 8 hours a day - coaching is not a bad way of earning your corn - especially if it helps raise public awareness and fanbase.

Tap into the community.

We have the chance to build a new ground around the corner, our potential fanfase is soon to double, we have the highest average attendance for nearly 50 years ( I recall the crowds in the 79/80 season were about 1200).

I would dispair if we went the same way as Dover, Dartford or Margate, I couldn't bear to watch Kent League or Ryman 1 in front of embarrassing crowds of 250, I had enough of that in the late 60's, mid 70,s and late 80's.

We have the chance in the next 18 months to make it happen, let the board be bold, and make some tough but important decisions.

Before Gillingham steal out thunder.

[Guest]

Just because someone moves to the area wont make them a Fleet fan , The board has a duty to keep the club alive , not I feel to gamble and if it fails kill the club.

[Hempstead Gaz]

Quote:

Just because someone moves to the area wont make them a Fleet fan , The board has a duty to keep the club alive , not I feel to gamble and if it fails kill the club.

Like Margate, Dartford and Sittingbourne.
All once averaging 1200 - 1500, now averaging 200.
They are only barely alive. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Is the price to high though , going full time doesnt always bring success , then we go skint because of it and have to start looking for something else to do on a Saturday?

[Guest]

If Gillingham play in Gravesend then were shafted.

[Hempstead Gaz]

My point, exactly.

We have to set a series of events in motion BEFORE the Scally gets the chance to lay down his roots in Ebbsfleet. If and when that happens, I feel we would simply not be able to compete as a small, part time club against Gillingham.

We have to go full time, and plan our new ground asap, or we'll be stuffed.

[Bloodnock]

I totally agree with C.G. we really have to bite the bullet the opportunity is there,it won't come again.

There is a chance to increase our fanbase and we won't get it by just hoping they will automatically start coming through the turnstiles just because we are the nearest club to their new residence,we have to sell the club, and of course that would also involve on the field success to put us in the public eye.

Of course that will require us to invest in players,it's got to be done,everything should be synchronised,as near as possible, as the area grows, so do we.

I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at the recent interviews for a new manager,just to see what the mindset of our chairman is as regards investment in better quality players.

I don't doubt the board as a whole are ambitious,and their more aware than most of us supporters just how crucial these next few years will be for the club,there are hundreds of football clubs out there would give their eye teeth to be in our position so let's not waste it.

[Wobbly Wayne rides again]

Quote:

If Gillingham play in Gravesend then were shafted.

 

I think that you will find both teams would have been shafted. The Gills more than us.

[ColtheJock]

This subject has been on ongoing debate for a long while now, and I have always stated that I feel that the only way forward for Gravesend, if they realistically have any expectation of reaching the football league, is for the club to go full time. However, I also understand the need to ensure the club is on a firm financial footing. We, alas, have no major benefactor to bail us out of trouble, and we have seem what having money and then losing it can do to clubs at this level. I hope that Gravesham Council will stand strong and not allow Gillingham to move inot the area, but I fear that money talks, and if Mr Scally offers them a few sweeteners then that would be that. If that does happen then Gravesend could struggle to get a larger fan base. I agree that the club need to grasp this opportunity to move forward, but whether they can remains a valid question. The future could be bright, but will it be red!!!!

[Guest]

Much as I share Gary's ambitions for the club, it will simply come down to economics.I am not sure what the weekly wage bill is, but it must be in the region £4,000 - £5,000, not including the manager (is he full time?)and staff.

Let's be generous and say it is £4,000, with average gates of 1,200 we are probably netting around £12,000 every other week plus other income, but less other costs which will be numerous - so there is absolutely no way the club have a surplus of £8,000 every other week. If you take yesterday as an instance, the preparation and travel to Carlisle, plus a week of no gate income and gate last Saturday of well under 1,000 (ok I guess the gate was shaved a bit as all clubs do for Cup ties), but the bottom line is that the club probably operated at a loss last week.

Obviously any continuation of gates dipping under the 1,000 mark has obvious implications.

To go full time and to attract the right players, you really have got to be talking about a minimum weekly wage of £500.00 per player based on a squad of say 16, plus a few part timers. This will then double the weekly outlay and associated costs. If we barely break even now, can we guarantee that the fan base will more than double in order to cover this ? Ok it might have the potential to do this long term, but this would be an immediate requirement.

In the current climate the club and the fans have to either accept that if it is to remain part time, a mid table place is the best it is ever going to achieve, if it goes full time - who knows ? There are no certanties.

The club has reached a major crossroads and it is certainly time for ambitous thinking, but realism has to have the final say.

By the way this was written by Richard Anson - I coud not be bothered to do all the registering palava ! Regards to all who know me !

[David Holden]

Quote:

If you take yesterday as an instance, the preparation and travel to Carlisle, plus a week of no gate income and gate last Saturday of well under 1,000 (ok I guess the gate was shaved a bit as all clubs do for Cup ties), but the bottom line is that the club probably operated at a loss last week.

 

Not entirely true Richard, although the gate was low, (and the proceeds shared) you forgot to include the fact that we picked up £5,000 in prize money, which probably means that we actually made a profit last weekend.

 

The board clearly said at the Club AGM that they were considering full-time football for next season, and that it could be funded, but did not want to go into details of how the funds would be raised at this time.

[Richard C]

Fantastic news there Dave if additional funding has been secured. I agree with Richard ( as i would ) that we are at a crossroads and careful hedging is required from the club. Could go one of two ways here - but we have the most impressive chairman and board ive ever seen ata football club and im confident they'l get it right.

[Guest]

Quote:

On a previous thread, I stated the following:
"Unlike other clubs in the Conference we are not a sleeping giant, but thanks to Mr Blair and the Thames Gateway development we have as much potential most clubs outside of the Premiership.
However, to take advantage of this golden opportunity, we neen to tap into the community urgently, to enhance our chances of full time football, increased attendances, a new stadium and ultimately promotion into the football league.
Slow and sure may get there in 10 - 15 years, but we have the chance in the next 5 years to do all of these things IF the board have courage, vision and foresight to get things moving this and next year.
If we don't I can see events overtaking us andit all going horribly wrong, getting relegated, Gillingham building a new ground next door,stealing our fans and us eventually going bust or playing the likes of Erith, Dartford and Sittingbourne in front of crowds of 350 like in the "sad old days".

I need to expand on this.
Long term success is now within our reach, but it does require a certain gamble by the board.
Looking at previous efforts by Kent clubs in Conference football, all have had success in early years, Maidstone, Us in the 79/80 season, Wellling, Margate, Dover.
In all cases poor decisions at boardroom level prevented them making a long term impact on challenging Gillingham as Kents top club.
Both Welling and Dover chose not to go full time when they were within reach of doing so - both have struggled since.
Maidstone and Margit both made errors regarding their stadiums (or lack of them).
We are so near yet so far.
Full time players could train, etc for 4 hours in the morning, then go out to schools, colleges in the afternoon coaching and spreading the Fleet gospel as they go, giving out complemantary child tickets when accompanied by paying adult. They are being paid for 8 hours a day - coaching is not a bad way of earning your corn - especially if it helps raise public awareness and fanbase.
Tap into the community.
We have the chance to build a new ground around the corner, our potential fanfase is soon to double, we have the highest average attendance for nearly 50 years ( I recall the crowds in the 79/80 season were about 1200).
I would dispair if we went the same way as Dover, Dartford or Margate, I couldn't bear to watch Kent League or Ryman 1 in front of embarrassing crowds of 250, I had enough of that in the late 60's, mid 70,s and late 80's.
We have the chance in the next 18 months to make it happen, let the board be bold, and make some tough but important decisions.
Before Gillingham steal out thunder.

All very fanciful.
1. From day one who is paying the salaries of these full times and how many would be salaried.
2. On gates of 1,000, do you really think that raises enough revenue to pay these salaries?
3.With Gillingham currently pulling in 7,000-8,000 and other potential fans going to support teams elsewhere what makes you think they will all of a sudden want to support Gravesend & Northfleet? I really think you should be trying to avoid getting into a relegation fight this season instead of thinking of going full time, if you had a decent stadium maybe that would be a start. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

Agree David, I actually edited my post to include the prize money, but somehow deleted it ! Only trouble is with prize money is the fact that you can never include it in your projections - knocked out first round you get nothing ! So

[The Truth]

All very fanciful.

1. From day one who is paying the salaries of these full times and how many would be salaried.

2. On gates of 1,000, do you really think that raises enough revenue to pay these salaries?

3.With Gillingham currently pulling in 7,000-8,000 and other potential fans going to support teams elsewhere what makes you think they will all of a sudden want to support Gravesend & Northfleet? I really think you should be trying to avoid getting into a relegation fight this season instead of thinking of going full time, if you had a decent stadium maybe that would be a start. <img src="/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

 

You are right we couldn't possibly do it on falling gates of 1,000 but wait a minute our actual average league gate this season is 1468 so we are 30% up on the same stage last season.

Where can we find extra fans hmm let me see, what we need is a club in easy travelling distance from us that is poorly run, can't afford to pay its wages from its income, is getting further in debt each season, narrowly avoided relegation last season, is currently in a relegation battle and yet has just p*ss*d off its fans by sticking up its season ticket prices for next season by over 30% making it more expensive than some premiership clubs.

I wonder if Scally knows of any club that fits that description?

[Harry J Allstars]

Quote:

we neen to tap into the community urgently,

The Premier League, The FA and Arsenal wont like that, Tapping isn't allowed.

[jc]

Quote:

Much as I share Gary's ambitions for the club, it will simply come down to economics.I am not sure what the weekly wage bill is, but it must be in the region £4,000 - £5,000, not including the manager (is he full time?)and staff.
Let's be generous and say it is £4,000, with average gates of 1,200 we are probably netting around £12,000 every other week plus other income, but less other costs which will be numerous - so there is absolutely no way the club have a surplus of £8,000 every other week. If you take yesterday as an instance, the preparation and travel to Carlisle, plus a week of no gate income and gate last Saturday of well under 1,000 (ok I guess the gate was shaved a bit as all clubs do for Cup ties), but the bottom line is that the club probably operated at a loss last week.
Obviously any continuation of gates dipping under the 1,000 mark has obvious implications.
To go full time and to attract the right players, you really have got to be talking about a minimum weekly wage of £500.00 per player based on a squad of say 16, plus a few part timers. This will then double the weekly outlay and associated costs. If we barely break even now, can we guarantee that the fan base will more than double in order to cover this ? Ok it might have the potential to do this long term, but this would be an immediate requirement.
In the current climate the club and the fans have to either accept that if it is to remain part time, a mid table place is the best it is ever going to achieve, if it goes full time - who knows ? There are no certanties.
The club has reached a major crossroads and it is certainly time for ambitous thinking, but realism has to have the final say.
By the way this was written by Richard Anson - I coud not be bothered to do all the registering palava ! Regards to all who know me !

Interesting, given all of the moaning about unregistered, anonymous posters on here, that this (give or take a couple of factual errors pointed out by David) is one of the most sensible postings in this thread. If, as David suggests, money may be available for full-time football next season, then this is of course encouraging (although I would be interested to hear where this money is coming from, given that full-time football isn't really advisable based on income from attendances etc. alone). But caution has to be taken. When people talk about an 'opportunity' to go full-time, what they really mean is that they are scared at seeing other Conference sides gradually going full-time and feel a frantic need to keep up with the Joneses.

[Slartibartfast]

The problem is we don't just want to go full time, we want to go full time with a side capable of getting promotion and that will cost a lot of money.

Billericay went full time in order to lower their wage bill. Burton went full time and their performances and their support dropped dramatically.

I don't know what finances might be in place to enable full time football at the fleet but if it happens I hope it doesn't come with any " we have two seasons to get promoted " or " we need gates of 2,500 to survive " caveats.

I certainly agree with J.C. that taking the Lemming approach of going full time because everyone else is could be a disaster and like Richard Anson I am a realist, if mid table is the best we can achieve next season count me in I'll buy my season ticket the day they are available.

It's quite likely that to progress further the club may need to gamble, only the board will know how big a gamble they are prepared to make but I hope nobody is prepared to bet everything.

[American FLEET FAN No1]

If the Club use the Beauwaters facilities to their fullest potential,........ "That could be a nice little earner"!

[JimGNFC]

Quote:

The board clearly said at the Club AGM that they were considering full-time football for next season, and that it could be funded, but did not want to go into details of how the funds would be raised at this time.

Interesting thread - perhaps Mr Gladwish is going to bankroll things or are the Directors re-mortgaging their houses. Don't do it!

How much more money would the Club need to go full-time? Last I heard it was between £200,000 and £250,000.

It would only take 40 generous individuals, pledging £5000 a year, for say 2 years to give the Club a real go at going full-time. Surely there are 40 such people out there?

On this basis, the Clubs future would not be at risk - any losses incurred would be covered for the fixed period of 2 years. This would give the Club some continuity too as players could be offered 2 year contracts - and if it doesn't work we go back to part-time. No harm done!

Its only a suggestion . . . before people start shouting me down! Its all about moving the Club to that next level - I really fear for the future of the Club if Gillingham move into the Borough.

On another note regarding the Club AGM - do the Club not have an obligation to notify all shareholders when this is? I know of 1 lady who owns quite a few shares in the club who has never received an invite (she doesn't go to games) - not to mention the many members of the Supporters Trust who presumably hold shares (aleit it 1 share) in the Club.