The defender must lose

[pabird]

Just been thinking over recent postings reference this and next season and the nature of star players we should import

Canvey have a way playing which demands flair, goals and star names.

We would all comment at this time that Real Madrid and Man-U are probably two of the best examples of this style world wide and yet both conced goals on a regular basis

Man-U normally play 4 at the back and Real-M 3 at the back

So the point is??

If a defender has a poor game the perspective is "he lost us the game"

If a defender has a brilliant game and an attacker has a mare but scores the winner off his [****!!****] , The attacker "is man of the match"

Those dynamics will ever be so and defenders have to just get on with the game

Defenders rarely are praised for their part in goals scored (unless they do the scoring) whilst mid-fielders and attackers are never blamed for goals conceded.

 

Will all that ever change? no so when I am reincarnated Im coming back as a striker with a great goalscoring [****!!****]

 

Sorry its just that I was thinking---------------------

[Matt H]

If I was re-incarnated I would come back as a better Goalkeeper than I am. Getting lobbed in a five-a-side goal was not the best moment of my fun and games!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But not only that I would like to come back more pacy than I am in this life so when I'm in my outfield position I can actually run the length of the left-wing and back again without being lapped!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

 

But I get what you mean pabird, (what position did you play?). Midielders & Attackers are rarely blamed for conceding goals even when it was them that lost the ball or failed to make the pass etc. I think our Kingstonian game at Park Lane this seasons proved that. It was there left-back that got the equaliser and he ran from his penalty area to the Canvey penalty area having a 1-2 in the process and scored!!! No-one would just shut him down.

 

Matt CIFC <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[pabird]

Striker--Inside forward--defensive midfield all hand in hand with old father time

 

[Matt H]

Inside-Forward? What kind of position is that?! Who would Canvey's inside forward be? Minton?

 

I'm not used to the old terms like Centre-Half etc.

 

Matt CIFC <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[pabird]

Ill come back to you on that you saucy sod

I suppose you have!nt heard of the W formation either

Will come back in ten minutes

[Matt H]

<img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /><img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[pabird]

Short history lesson using undated events

 

1. The first ever international was England V Scotland with the most interesting fact being that at that time the pass had not been introduced and players ran with the ball until losing out and both teams played with all forwards and a goalkeeper

 

2. After the pass was introduced teams throughout the world played in the same formation GK

LB------------CB------------RB

R-HALFBACK---------L-HALF BACK

R-wing---R-INSIDE FORWARD-C-FORWARD-L-INSIDE FORWARD-L-WING

 

3. Don Revie playing c-forward for Leeds invented the withdrawn center forward pushing the two inside forwards on the break and created havoc for the lone c-back with two inside forwards going past him

 

4. The gooners invented the double center backs

 

5. Most teams now moved to 1-4-4-2

 

The W formation was designed by an old England,Walthemstow AVE West Ham manager coach which meant that the man on the ball always had a minimum of two targets for a pass and it became easier to both defend and create space

The Tottenham H-S manager at the time (who moved on to C-Palace) (A.Rowe) then introduced push and run football as the precursor to the Spurs double side

Most of those changes were adopted by the likes of Brazil and Real Madrid and the great Hungarion side who reintroduced it to England by giving us some almighty hammer at wembly

How are we doing so far?

 

 

[Matt H]

Wow a 3-3-5 formation!! (That's 12 players!!!) Only someone with nothing to lose would try that now!!

 

Carry on pabird...I'm listening/watching.

 

Matt CIFC <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[pabird]

But any of it of interest? (genuine)is any of it new to you?

By the way 3-3-5 was me showing the c-half twice (maths invented later)

[Matt H]

Ok, I'll correct my post now.

 

Amazing that no-one thought of passing the ball or actually making an effort to defend their own goal better back then. Very interesting. Yes all of it was new to me.

 

Matt CIFC <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[CANV EFM]

qaulity stuff pabird..!!!

[cangull]

Ahhh dreams .. Left Half was my position!!!

[pabird]

No time for a big follow-up but an interesting comment on passing

There are only three ways of creating space in the opposition box

1. The dribble where taking a defender out creates the space where that defender was and demands a further defender moves to cover

 

2. The through ball which in passing between and behind at least one and usually two defenders creates space

 

and

 

3. The wall pass which again isolates a defender creating his space for the runner

 

So therefore before the pass was "invented" only one way to create space that being the dribble

Apart from those being the only creative way of making space for the shooter I suppose you would have to add the non-creative defender making a [****!!****]-up in clearing or passing out from the back

[pabird]

I was hoping some of the more mature members might join in Canv

Total Football

Invented in Holland by design and Ipswich by default

When the then Alf Ramsey took over as manager of Ipswich he was to manage a club with no money and old players with a few kids

Not one young natural winger among the bunch

But they had two old strikers who I believe were Phillips and Leadbetter who could score goals and Alf made that team champions as "The wingless wonders"

lacking wingers he developed a side prepared to work for each other for 90 minutes with the mid-field,the two strikers and defenders all willing to take up the vacant wide space and to interchange in the spaces created when odd players went wide

This development of Alfs tactics became the tactics eventually used by Sir Alf when having available every English winger in the leagues (1966?)

 

Meanwhile Ajax developed total football by design and the tactic was adopted by the national side

To be effective players were trained through youth squads to play in all parts of the pitch IE a natural CH would be played up front then in mid-field and wide positions and this "work experience" youth training eventually produced the great Dutch world cup sides

Today Ajax still attempt to develop those systems

[Matt H]

Having read through all the posts above again I think now we HAVE to play 4-4-2.

 

Sure we've had the 10-1s, 6-1s, how many 5-1s did we have last season? The defect in those scorelines is the 1s. Even Enfield managed that 1 goal. But that is exciting football that the fans enjoy once in a while.

 

But if you want to get out of this League, you must adopt the Aldershot approach. Look at the number of 1-0s they've had over this season! Sure they win by the odd goal, but it's the opposition's scores that count. Remember you can always get a point for not scoring, but you get nothing for conceeding.

 

We can still have the sexy football on the wings if we have a diamond midfield - pabird what's the best way for that without being over-run in midfield? We could have the midfielders on the left and right - JK and Parms for example, the guy in front of the defence, (Benno, Dobbo or Proths) and the fourth sitting just behind the front two, (Minton, or Gregory if we are 'attacking').

 

Then if the opposition are attacking we would have 7 men behind the ball, (back four, the defensive midfielder and the wide midfielders tracking back) and hopefully the most they would have would be four attacking. At least two tackles would be put in, (The DM and then a central midfielder if they're going through the middle) or if they're attacking along one side, three tackles could but hopefully not be aquired, (Midfielder L/R, Defender L/R and then a covering central defender) hopefully the central defender putting the tackle in would be a last resort. Then once we've won back the possession we should have the wide midfielders ready to pounce on the ball and just run down the open space as their wide player tries to get back, then the cross, the shot, the goal.

 

It works in theory I'm sure, but is there any chance of the Management actually taking it on board and attempting it practically? Time to up those pre-season training schedules!

 

If Terry Brown can do it in a season, we can do it in 4!!! <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

 

Matt CIFC <img src="/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[pabird]

We can only talk "in our opinion" so I would see the higher percentage chances of us actually winning the league as follows

 

Wingers of the old school are a luxury no serious side can afford but we do need to create space all over the pitch and defend space likewise

So to gain the attacking frenzy Jeff is fond of and win those 1--0 games I would go with this type of side

 

------------Potter (uses all of his area)

Wardy--------------Chenners--Cowans---------Crow

 

-------------------Benno or Dobinson------------

All five are natural defenders and attackers and should be encouraged to ensure we always have three in place at the back

Wardy goes forward the other three move across likewise Crow goes forward the other three move across

Chenners or Cowans go forward with Crow or Wardy then Benno or Dobinson drop in retaining three at the back

JK----------------------------------------------------------Duffers

----------------------------------(Palms)

---------------------------Jeff----------------------------------

 

--------------------Boylan---------Greggors (Bertie)-----------------

Jeff recovers to the middle of the field defensively but goes forward closer to the forwards than we have seen

Jeff with the two strikers are our first line of defence

JK , Wardy and Benno or Duffers Benno and Crow are our second line of defence

If the attack is on our left then Cheners,Cowans and Crow are the reaguard. if on our right Wardy Cowns and Cheners are the last line of defence

The real essential change is for the outfield 10 to move forward and back as a tighter unit

The players by name may change but we would be using a system of play where change players coming in would understand their role in simple terms

Is? that clear

 

[pabird]

Back to the changing game and our friends from Wimbledon

Almost every supporter in the land will tell you that the Dons invented a nasty game of big wellie and get your foot in

Not so the Dons always had the (declared) ambition to emulate their idols the Gooners

The gooners invented the "all court pressure game" where every man was responsible for closing down and making the tackle once cover was on (George Graham) and defending in never less than groups of three

The Dons played the second ball game

Where!ever it was decided to belt the Dead ball kick the entire team focused on that part of the pitch intent on only one action "win the second ball" in this way they always outnumbered the opposition around the landing ball

Remember how serious this first action was taken. They even went to the extent of leaving the grass longer and watering the ground on the wings to allow slowing down of the ball in the second ball tussle

Cambridge took the gambit one step further in locating yellow boards in the four corners of the ground and training players "when in doubt aim for the boards"

Any doubts as to how simple the Dons played in early years can be seen by a close look at Vinny Jones in the early days, His prime skill was the ability to throw the ball a long way and with far greater accuracy than with his feet (down the wing,down the wing and into the middle) . The rest of his game in those early days was the verbal and (when he could catch them) physical intimidation of the opposition

The simple truth is that the Gooners are the only succesful league team in recent times to win the domestic league playing pressurised long ball tactics

There has never been a succesful international side (Norway nearest) that played purely pressure or long ball soccer

The Dons did eventually develop other skills and designs on the future

Cambridge sacked their manger after the short rise to fame became the quicker drop to obscurity