Mark Nisbet

[Neil Baker]

6 hours ago, 3spirit said:

Neil and/or Jon, I may be on my own here, in the fact that fans[and some managers] have fixed ideas in where players have to play. To me, I don't see it like that at all. I'm not saying every player is suitable to play 'in any position' but some players can. I was having a conversation with my nephew the other day at a home Slough match, and he said he could see Scott Davies playing as a sweeper between two centre halves. I agreed with him but for me Lee Togwell would be my choice currently. Got me thinking about Adam Foulser and how you two developed him from a centre midfielder to a centre half. Unfortunately at Slough, he got badly injured before we fans could see the best of him.

It's funny that at Tottenham Antonio Conte is playing the three centre half system that I have always favoured, using Eric Dier predominantly in the middle. It makes me reminisce about Brian McDermott's Slough side when he bought in Terry Angus, a proven no nonsense,wily centre half and the astute versatile Gary McGinnis as sweeper, and converted prolific goal scorer centre forward Cliff Hercules,who was on the wane upfront and used him as the other centre half. With them in place Slough went from strength to strength. 

Freddie Grant is a versatile defender stroke midfielder in my mind. Like Josh Jackman I don't pigeon hole what they can and can't do.Aaron Kuhl came up on another thread. I think we are fortunate in the Slough side to have players who look natural on the ball and can be asked to play in other positions to their own.

Do you both agree. Is that a criteria you look for in players or do you both favour a more 'horses for courses' way, like some fans seem to advocate? I notice that a traditional 'back four' is your preferred chosen method. Is that because you both were centre halves and preferred playing in a back four yourselves and it is easier to fit players into their defined roles,so doesn't over complicate matters?

Just wondering.....         

we will always favour someone who can be adaptable than someone who can play one position only.

in terms of favouring a back 4, that is correct, we both played in a 3 for a big part of our playing career with me Unders and Stuart Hammonds, however I never felt comfortable playing it, and I always think a team can be susceptible unless you have the perfect players, we tried it in pre season, it did not work one bit,and in fact we were very poor, and quickly moved back to a back 4.

 

[Guest Wycombe Rebel]

15 hours ago, Neil Baker said:

we will always favour someone who can be adaptable than someone who can play one position only.

in terms of favouring a back 4, that is correct, we both played in a 3 for a big part of our playing career with me Unders and Stuart Hammonds, however I never felt comfortable playing it, and I always think a team can be susceptible unless you have the perfect players, we tried it in pre season, it did not work one bit,and in fact we were very poor, and quickly moved back to a back 4.

 

I was a full back in my playing days, was very comfortable there until the 3 at the back fad came in and everyone was at it, I moved from full back to right sided centre back and was pulled apart just like the left full back who had moved to left centre back... You are 100% right Bakes, unless you have the correct personnel to play it and who are used to it then it can be calamitous... I always go back to when we had Hercules, Stowell/McGinnis and Angus as a back 3, that worked largely in part to how well Danny Bailey anchored the midfield and when Smart and Hardyman bombed on Bailey dropped into the back 3 making it a back 4, incredible intelligence to be able to do that... I can see what you mean 3spirit about a sweeper but it does not often work converting a central midfielder to that position, just ask Jamie Redknapp! Only player I've ever seen convert was Matthias Sammer, Germany just got lucky there.

[Jon Underwood]

What you will notice if you watch carefully is that when we have the ball Scott will often drop in alongside our two centre backs anyway and we push our two full backs high and wide which makes it a 3-5-2 when in possession. This is often dependent on what shape the other team play however as this isn’t always needed.

But as Bakes said we do like to defend with a back four with a holding player in front of them which has worked well this season.

[3spirit]

15 hours ago, Neil Baker said:

we will always favour someone who can be adaptable than someone who can play one position only.

in terms of favouring a back 4, that is correct, we both played in a 3 for a big part of our playing career with me Unders and Stuart Hammonds, however I never felt comfortable playing it, and I always think a team can be susceptible unless you have the perfect players, we tried it in pre season, it did not work one bit,and in fact we were very poor, and quickly moved back to a back 4.

 

Thanks for your reply,Neil. Is Jon in total agreement with this?

Understand totally your reasoning and accept that view. I think it's a pity that you won't considerate it, as when it functions well, it brings such an exciting formation to watch ie wing backs,sweeper, a player playing the ball out from the back, centre midfield 2 or 3 and definitely playing with 2 forwards or the occasional 3 etc. It also gives a lot of players freedom in an attacking sense.

I get that it takes time to develop,though, and young players can get confused with too much information.Your preference of 4 defenders in clearly defined roles is a tried and tested method which most teams have favoured over the years, so I'm not knocking it.

I just wondered that if Slough face hardship in attracting top centre halves money wise,that to cover that fact from time to time a back three could be helpful to the cause in 'papering over the cracks' so to speak, and with the bonus of freeing players like Josh Jackman and Freddie Grant to maraud forward. Not that they don't find a way now ! It also accomodates more playing potential in the middle of the park.

Anyway, just thought I'd ask.

   

[3spirit]

9 minutes ago, Jon Underwood said:

What you will notice if you watch carefully is that when we have the ball Scott will often drop in alongside our two centre backs anyway and we push our two full backs high and wide which makes it a 3-5-2 when in possession. This is often dependent on what shape the other team play however as this isn’t always needed.

But as Bakes said we do like to defend with a back four with a holding player in front of them which has worked well this season.

Sorry Jon I didn't see your post. I must have been writing. I like the 3-5-2 in possession and bow to your knowledge about what is preferable for this Slough team.Your opinion and Neil's opinion, given you were both centre halves, is insightful.

Cookham Rebel,makes some very enlightening points,too. The funny thing is, though, you don't necessarily have to be the best centre half in the world to play it.John Docherty played it for Slough in the Conference and that season he had a very limited bunch in what he could do,defensive wise, and certainly got the best out the situation. I recognise that British Football is rather stuck in it's ways but on a wider worldly view it isn't the be all end all.

Non league football is never going to be about experimental deviations from the norm and nobody likes too much change,so I understand reticence in being over elaborate.

[Reading Rebel]

3 hours ago, 3spirit said:

Sorry Jon I didn't see your post. I must have been writing. I like the 3-5-2 in possession and bow to your knowledge about what is preferable for this Slough team.Your opinion and Neil's opinion, given you were both centre halves, is insightful.

Cookham Rebel,makes some very enlightening points,too. The funny thing is, though, you don't necessarily have to be the best centre half in the world to play it.John Docherty played it for Slough in the Conference and that season he had a very limited bunch in what he could do,defensive wise, and certainly got the best out the situation. I recognise that British Football is rather stuck in it's ways but on a wider worldly view it isn't the be all end all.

Non league football is never going to be about experimental deviations from the norm and nobody likes too much change,so I understand reticence in being over elaborate.

I would imaging full time clubs have the time to practice these different formations but difficult for part time clubs to cram it all in.

[3spirit]

2 hours ago, Reading Rebel said:

I would imaging full time clubs have the time to practice these different formations but difficult for part time clubs to cram it all in.

If a team wanted to put it into practice, pre-season is the ideal time to work on it.

I actually think it is better for youngsters to get used to playing in a four man defence when they get into the first team and learn their trade in a positional sense, against better, more experienced players. I like a 3 man defence when you have two experienced clever on the ball at their feet centre halves,one being a leader of men type and the third a young player learning his trade similar to Matt Stowell or as of now Edon Pruti, that sort of stamp/build.

[Guest Wycombe Rebel]

On 24/03/2022 at 10:29, 3spirit said:

Sorry Jon I didn't see your post. I must have been writing. I like the 3-5-2 in possession and bow to your knowledge about what is preferable for this Slough team.Your opinion and Neil's opinion, given you were both centre halves, is insightful.

Cookham Rebel,makes some very enlightening points,too. The funny thing is, though, you don't necessarily have to be the best centre half in the world to play it.John Docherty played it for Slough in the Conference and that season he had a very limited bunch in what he could do,defensive wise, and certainly got the best out the situation. I recognise that British Football is rather stuck in it's ways but on a wider worldly view it isn't the be all end all.

Non league football is never going to be about experimental deviations from the norm and nobody likes too much change,so I understand reticence in being over elaborate.

If I remember rightly, Doherty only played 3-5-2 on 4 or 5 occasions when he slotted Margerison or Hancock in alongside Lee and Hazel… We went from being title contenders to a shambles in / weeks that season, amazing really how it happened!

[3spirit]

On 25/03/2022 at 20:23, CookhamRebel said:

If I remember rightly, Doherty only played 3-5-2 on 4 or 5 occasions when he slotted Margerison or Hancock in alongside Lee and Hazel… We went from being title contenders to a shambles in / weeks that season, amazing really how it happened!

Sorry for the delay in replying,Cookham Rebel. Remembering who did what back then, isn't my strongest point. Too many beers over the years,me thinks ! ha ha !

I do remember,however,what a first class manager John Docherty was,given that he wasn't given the same funds as others, and that the players coming into the club were mainly untried,untested youngsters. In the short time he was at our club I thought he did remarkably well in his organisation skills and tactics with a very average, limited bunch of players, and results early on was a lot better than many fans thought we would get [myself included !].

I would say he got out of the manager's position at the right time, as it was obvious that the bubble of good performances and stirring defensive displays would only last for so long.

I wasn't privvy to what was going on behind the scenes of the club at the time,so maybe John Docherty knew that his stint was only going to be for a short spell and that he was trying to save the club's money on expensive players but I was impressed in how he went around organising his team. I believe he employed a 3-5-2 on more than 5 occasions  but cannot prove it as of the Non League Team Talk Directories I do have, I do not have that year.

What I do excel at, is memories of non league players[ particularly Slough's ones]. I remember clearly the young Brian Lee being a great find at centre back and came from Millwall's youth team. For two seasons-ish, he was a revelation for Slough. Unfortunately he couldn't maintain it, as he waned sadly into adulthood.  Lee? Margerison was young too  and I think he was from Bradford's youth? He didn't play many games but did fill in, in a back 3. I never rated him but he may not have wanted to be at Slough given that he was from up North. He seemed to vanish as quick as he arrived.  At that time, we didn't have much in the way of centre halves. Darren Hancock was a novice right back who was willing enough but very limited and while he had a couple of good games he was never really good enough for the level we was at then.        

[Guest Wycombe Rebel]

On 27/03/2022 at 15:51, 3spirit said:

Sorry for the delay in replying,Cookham Rebel. Remembering who did what back then, isn't my strongest point. Too many beers over the years,me thinks ! ha ha !

I do remember,however,what a first class manager John Docherty was,given that he wasn't given the same funds as others, and that the players coming into the club were mainly untried,untested youngsters. In the short time he was at our club I thought he did remarkably well in his organisation skills and tactics with a very average, limited bunch of players, and results early on was a lot better than many fans thought we would get [myself included !].

I would say he got out of the manager's position at the right time, as it was obvious that the bubble of good performances and stirring defensive displays would only last for so long.

I wasn't privvy to what was going on behind the scenes of the club at the time,so maybe John Docherty knew that his stint was only going to be for a short spell and that he was trying to save the club's money on expensive players but I was impressed in how he went around organising his team. I believe he employed a 3-5-2 on more than 5 occasions  but cannot prove it as of the Non League Team Talk Directories I do have, I do not have that year.

What I do excel at, is memories of non league players[ particularly Slough's ones]. I remember clearly the young Brian Lee being a great find at centre back and came from Millwall's youth team. For two seasons-ish, he was a revelation for Slough. Unfortunately he couldn't maintain it, as he waned sadly into adulthood.  Lee? Margerison was young too  and I think he was from Bradford's youth? He didn't play many games but did fill in, in a back 3. I never rated him but he may not have wanted to be at Slough given that he was from up North. He seemed to vanish as quick as he arrived.  At that time, we didn't have much in the way of centre halves. Darren Hancock was a novice right back who was willing enough but very limited and while he had a couple of good games he was never really good enough for the level we was at then.        

Just look on the archives on the website 3spirit, that will confirm he only played 3 at the back on a few occasions, on others he played a 4 of Quamina, Hazel, Lee, Dowson… 4 in front of Stanley, Scott, Briley, Fiore with Sayer and Scott up front. When he went to 3 he dropped Stanley to the bench and brought in Margerison. Hancock never really featured until Briley took over.

I believe Docherty left Slough because he came into a lot of money, no other reason.

 

[Shredding Green]

53 minutes ago, CookhamRebel said:

Just look on the archives on the website 3spirit, that will confirm he only played 3 at the back on a few occasions, on others he played a 4 of Quamina, Hazel, Lee, Dowson… 4 in front of Stanley, Scott, Briley, Fiore with Sayer and Scott up front. When he went to 3 he dropped Stanley to the bench and brought in Margerison. Hancock never really featured until Briley took over.

I believe Docherty left Slough because he came into a lot of money, no other reason.

 

I can only find one further employment of John Docherty after he left Slough Town :-

John Docherty returned to Millwall during the 1996-7 season, but by this stage they were in the new Division Two (the third flight of English football) and he failed to emulate his first spell as manager. His contract was not renewed at the end of the season and he was replaced by Billy Bonds.

Interesting to note that shortly after Les Briley was appointed manager of Slough Town, they beat Runcorn 3-0 at Wexham Park in the Conference on 11th December 1993. The attendance : 675!!! Although the club had not been pulling out all the stops to try and boost the attendance for that match.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Shredding Green

[Irishadrian]

1 hour ago, Shredding Green said:

I can only find one further employment of John Docherty after he left Slough Town :-

John Docherty returned to Millwall during the 1996-7 season, but by this stage they were in the new Division Two (the third flight of English football) and he failed to emulate his first spell as manager. His contract was not renewed at the end of the season and he was replaced by Billy Bonds.

Interesting to note that shortly after Les Briley was appointed manager of Slough Town, they beat Runcorn 3-0 at Wexham Park in the Conference on 11th December 1993. The attendance : 675!!! Although the club had not been pulling out all the stops to try and boost the attendance for that match.

Our official match report for this game does draw attention to the bitterly cold  wind which deterred so many from attending.

[Guest Wycombe Rebel]

1 hour ago, Irishadrian said:

Our official match report for this game does draw attention to the bitterly cold  wind which deterred so many from attending.

I was there, one bright moment in another wise god awful season 

[3spirit]

21 hours ago, CookhamRebel said:

Just look on the archives on the website 3spirit, that will confirm he only played 3 at the back on a few occasions, on others he played a 4 of Quamina, Hazel, Lee, Dowson… 4 in front of Stanley, Scott, Briley, Fiore with Sayer and Scott up front. When he went to 3 he dropped Stanley to the bench and brought in Margerison. Hancock never really featured until Briley took over.

I believe Docherty left Slough because he came into a lot of money, no other reason.

 

I know John Docherty left because he got a pay out.

On the subject of the 3 at the back. It may be that I'm including pre-season,as until these last three seasons, I have always watched all pre season games as well. Mark Quamina might have played the odd game at right back but I don't remember him playing there much.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Your version isn't how I remember it,though.

I do seem to recall the 4-4-2 you are saying but perhaps that was more towards the end of his reign,when results had started to dry up.

Looking through rose tinted glasses, and thinking of those players when they were at their best, you would have said that was a good line up but to me Ian Hazel was wasted playing at centre half and was really just filling in because Slough didn't have anyone better to play the role. Mark Quamina wasn't a good fit for right back[ too weak in his tackling],though I can see why he may have been put there. Neil Stanley was past his best and wasn't a natural fit as a winger but did ok there. Les Briley by then was inconsistent and Andy Sayer had gone off the boil, to when he had played under Dave Kemp. Alongside Briley in centre midfield was Steve Scott who was well past his best.He arrived under Alan Davies's watch and Dave Kemp rejuvenated him. Alan Dowson was a steady eddie at left back and deserved his place.Mark Fiore you could still get a good tune from, and Morrys Scott up front was a character and to me seemed underrated by the Slough faithful,who always seemed to give the plaudits to Andy Sayer. That's how I remember it.         

Edited March 30, 2022 by 3spirit

[3spirit]

21 hours ago, Shredding Green said:

I can only find one further employment of John Docherty after he left Slough Town :-

John Docherty returned to Millwall during the 1996-7 season, but by this stage they were in the new Division Two (the third flight of English football) and he failed to emulate his first spell as manager. His contract was not renewed at the end of the season and he was replaced by Billy Bonds.

Interesting to note that shortly after Les Briley was appointed manager of Slough Town, they beat Runcorn 3-0 at Wexham Park in the Conference on 11th December 1993. The attendance : 675!!! Although the club had not been pulling out all the stops to try and boost the attendance for that match.

Did Gary Brabin still play for Runcorn by then? I think he did but not sure. He was a rock and though I never got to see him much,I thought he was class in the games I did see him. A bit rough on the edges and would take no prisoners but a better footballer than some would give him credit.

Imagine him, Graham Roberts and Darron Wilkinson in the same line up !  !

[Irishadrian]

7 hours ago, 3spirit said:

Did Gary Brabin still play for Runcorn by then? I think he did but not sure. He was a rock and though I never got to see him much,I thought he was class in the games I did see him. A bit rough on the edges and would take no prisoners but a better footballer than some would give him credit.

Imagine him, Graham Roberts and Darron Wilkinson in the same line up !  !

3 Spirit  Yes he did  Mentioned in our match report of this game.

[Guest Wycombe Rebel]

On 30/03/2022 at 16:26, 3spirit said:

I know John Docherty left because he got a pay out.

On the subject of the 3 at the back. It may be that I'm including pre-season,as until these last three seasons, I have always watched all pre season games as well. Mark Quamina might have played the odd game at right back but I don't remember him playing there much.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Your version isn't how I remember it,though.

I do seem to recall the 4-4-2 you are saying but perhaps that was more towards the end of his reign,when results had started to dry up.

Looking through rose tinted glasses, and thinking of those players when they were at their best, you would have said that was a good line up but to me Ian Hazel was wasted playing at centre half and was really just filling in because Slough didn't have anyone better to play the role. Mark Quamina wasn't a good fit for right back[ too weak in his tackling],though I can see why he may have been put there. Neil Stanley was past his best and wasn't a natural fit as a winger but did ok there. Les Briley by then was inconsistent and Andy Sayer had gone off the boil, to when he had played under Dave Kemp. Alongside Briley in centre midfield was Steve Scott who was well past his best.He arrived under Alan Davies's watch and Dave Kemp rejuvenated him. Alan Dowson was a steady eddie at left back and deserved his place.Mark Fiore you could still get a good tune from, and Morrys Scott up front was a character and to me seemed underrated by the Slough faithful,who always seemed to give the plaudits to Andy Sayer. That's how I remember it.         

Andy Sayer's best season was his year under Dave Russell when he was moved to central midfield, an absolute revelation!

[3spirit]

On 01/04/2022 at 15:59, CookhamRebel said:

Andy Sayer's best season was his year under Dave Russell when he was moved to central midfield, an absolute revelation!

You're taking the pee now !

[Guest Wycombe Rebel]

20 minutes ago, 3spirit said:

You're taking the pee now !

Certainly am not, as an attacking central midfielder, behind West and Bushay, he was a class act with Catlin. His performances that season got him his move to Enfield who were head and shoulders better than us that season and would’ve made a run at winning the Conference had they not cooked the books.

Edited April 3, 2022 by CookhamRebel

[3spirit]

1 hour ago, CookhamRebel said:

Certainly am not, as an attacking central midfielder, behind West and Bushay, he was a class act with Catlin. His performances that season got him his move to Enfield who were head and shoulders better than us that season and would’ve made a run at winning the Conference had they not cooked the books.

Andy Sayer mainly played up front, although I agree Dave Russell did adapt Andy Sayer's game to suit his tactics and improved the amount of work Sayer was doing but he also used Ansil Bushay in midfield,too,at times. I thought Andy Sayer was ok under Dave Russell but I would have got shot of him before he had ever played for him !

To me Dave Kemp got the best out of Andy Sayer, as he banged in the goals under him. He went totally off the boil,as did the team under Les Briley. Dave Russell stopped the rot, and in the main,I liked Dave Russell and Laurie Craker's team and their tactics, and some of the players they brought to the club. Agree about Neil Catlin he was class in midfield but for me Andy Sayer was a stop gap as a midfielder,in terms of what he brought. He must have been on a few bob at Slough,I thought we kept him past his sell by date !  

Edited April 3, 2022 by 3spirit