Referees revisited

[Steph]

Another good post gonzo however again I disagree with one of your points.

 

"Unfortunately not all those who officiate in any walk of life are able to judge from a completely neutral position. There is bias within courts of law, so why should there not be on football pitches in the ESL?"

 

Of course there is bias and prejudice. I would go further and suggest that no one can "judge from a completely neutral position" and that is why judgement is such a difficult job.

 

We grow up in a culture where our parents have the greatest influence on us. They also grew up in a culture which stretches back as far as the original homo sapiens species emerged. All the time prejudice and bias builds up. It was probably, and still is, a survival technique. If you can build up the opposing tribe into a hate figure you will fight them more fiercly for the land, game rights or food that is available. This bias is clearly raised in war situations which is why epithets such as "ragheads", "chinks", "krauts", "slant eyes" etc come to the fore in conflict. It is the mass culture taking hold and recognising "the enemy".

 

It is a mark of civilisation that modern man attempts to overcome these prejudices but that does not mean that they have disappeared.

 

A good ref (judge) will surely overcome all prejudice and bias. But who would turn up in a court room wearing beads, headband and other hippy paraphanalia. When I am asked to attend court, I get my hair cut, wear a suit and tie and generally smarten up my appearance as that is what the judge expects. I consider that if I am smart my evidence will be believed much more than if I am slovenly.

 

Now let us come to the refs. Do you expect a ref to treat a player the same if he has been whined at throughout the game by a player as opposed to another player who quietly gets on with their job; when a decision goes against them accepts it. It is likely that the whinger will be booked first in the same situation and it is a nonsense to suggest that both players will be treated the same.

 

There was a player used to play for Enfield called Lee Francis. He was a good player and goal scorer. He scored 5 goals against Wycombe Wanderers in one game all from crosses. I can recall, in his early days, a goal mouth incident when his background was exposed. He complained to his fellow players "I say! Come on you chaps". It was heard all round the ground and I have to say it was the last time that he used the word chaps as far as the spectators were concerned he was a "Toff" and not one that they usually met. My father has not forgotten it, even today. It had an effect on our working class lives. Would Lee Francis be treated the same as Ronnie Howell by the refs I wonder!

[AbbeyMan]

There are some very interesting points on this thread ranging from interpretation of the laws of the game to freedom of speech.

 

I try to remember that every action has a reaction and that reaction may not be what one would expect.

 

In the case of public criticism of anything to do with the ESL on any media - which must defintely would include the comment made by JC in the ETFC programme on the ref v Concord - the league management committee can take action if they wish!

[lovely stuff]

Quote:

AbbeyMan said:
There are some very interesting points on this thread ranging from interpretation of the laws of the game to freedom of speech.

I try to remember that every action has a reaction and that reaction may not be what one would expect.

In the case of public criticism of anything to do with the ESL on any media - which must defintely would include the comment made by JC in the ETFC programme on the ref v Concord - the league management committee can take action if they wish!

Your axe really should be sharp enough by now,Del....but you still keep on grinding it. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[lovely stuff]

Quote:

Steph said:
Another good post gonzo however again I disagree with one of your points.

"Unfortunately not all those who officiate in any walk of life are able to judge from a completely neutral position. There is bias within courts of law, so why should there not be on football pitches in the ESL?"

Of course there is bias and prejudice. I would go further and suggest that no one can "judge from a completely neutral position" and that is why judgement is such a difficult job.

We grow up in a culture where our parents have the greatest influence on us. They also grew up in a culture which stretches back as far as the original homo sapiens species emerged. All the time prejudice and bias builds up. It was probably, and still is, a survival technique. If you can build up the opposing tribe into a hate figure you will fight them more fiercly for the land, game rights or food that is available. This bias is clearly raised in war situations which is why epithets such as "ragheads", "chinks", "krauts", "slant eyes" etc come to the fore in conflict. It is the mass culture taking hold and recognising "the enemy".

It is a mark of civilisation that modern man attempts to overcome these prejudices but that does not mean that they have disappeared.

A good ref (judge) will surely overcome all prejudice and bias. But who would turn up in a court room wearing beads, headband and other hippy paraphanalia. When I am asked to attend court, I get my hair cut, wear a suit and tie and generally smarten up my appearance as that is what the judge expects. I consider that if I am smart my evidence will be believed much more than if I am slovenly.

Now let us come to the refs. Do you expect a ref to treat a player the same if he has been whined at throughout the game by a player as opposed to another player who quietly gets on with their job; when a decision goes against them accepts it. It is likely that the whinger will be booked first in the same situation and it is a nonsense to suggest that both players will be treated the same.

There was a player used to play for Enfield called Lee Francis. He was a good player and goal scorer. He scored 5 goals against Wycombe Wanderers in one game all from crosses. I can recall, in his early days, a goal mouth incident when his background was exposed. He complained to his fellow players "I say! Come on you chaps". It was heard all round the ground and I have to say it was the last time that he used the word chaps as far as the spectators were concerned he was a "Toff" and not one that they usually met. My father has not forgotten it, even today. It had an effect on our working class lives. Would Lee Francis be treated the same as Ronnie Howell by the refs I wonder!

I think you mean 'sir Nicky Francis'....as oppossed to our former right-back Lee Francis.

[AbbeyMan]

Quote:

lovely stuff said:

Quote:

AbbeyMan said:
There are some very interesting points on this thread ranging from interpretation of the laws of the game to freedom of speech.

I try to remember that every action has a reaction and that reaction may not be what one would expect.

In the case of public criticism of anything to do with the ESL on any media - which must defintely would include the comment made by JC in the ETFC programme on the ref v Concord - the league management committee can take action if they wish!

Your axe really should be sharp enough by now,Del....but you still keep grinding it. <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

huh?

[lovely stuff]

Ie...You've always had an 'axe-to-grind' where ETFC is concerned and it shows no sign of going away. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

 

 

[Steph]

LS

 

Of course!

 

Never very good with names.

[Gonzo]

Quote:

Steph said:
A good ref (judge) will surely overcome all prejudice and bias. But who would turn up in a court room wearing beads, headband and other hippy paraphanalia. When I am asked to attend court, I get my hair cut, wear a suit and tie and generally smarten up my appearance as that is what the judge expects. I consider that if I am smart my evidence will be believed much more than if I am slovenly.

Now let us come to the refs. Do you expect a ref to treat a player the same if he has been whined at throughout the game by a player as opposed to another player who quietly gets on with their job; when a decision goes against them accepts it. It is likely that the whinger will be booked first in the same situation and it is a nonsense to suggest that both players will be treated the same.

So you're saying that there is bias against ETFC which is the result of our players whinging throughout games?

I really haven't noticed Town players whinging any more than their opponents. In fact I can't recall a Town player being booked for complaining (although I'd be surprised if it hasn't happened to players at every club on occasions this season).

Therefore I suspect that there are other reasons for some dubious refereeing.

How about a 'tall poppy syndrome' where it is thought wise to even things up a little. ETFC have, on occasions over the last three years been head and shoulders above almost every opposing team they've faced. Town have been fortunate enough to have players who have played a couple of leagues above the ESL and this has shown. I remember hearing after a game at Waltham Abbey last season that the ref had told Danny Clarke he was reluctant to give some fouls against him because he recognised that it was all the Abbey defenders could do to keep up with him, let alone tackle him legitimately!

It has also been suggested above that the refs may be affected by the comparatively large crowds following the Town. Surely this should go in Town's favour. Think of Old Trafford where I believe it has incredibly been some years since an opposing premiership team has been awarded a penalty.

Unfortunately I'm inclined to believe that some of the refs in the ESL are biased against Town. Maybe it's because they think we need to be taken down a peg or two. Maybe these essex refs have started to resent their trips to middlesex. Or maybe it's because it's because they're terrified we may get promoted this year and they'll lose their chance to perform before a crowd on a saturday afternoon! Either way, it's not nearly so much fun watching when you know your team's not only playing against the opposing 11, but also the man in black.

[ETFC Neil]

Steph, you hippy, you want to stop listening to CSN&Y. Nothing good can come of it.

[AbbeyMan]

Quote:

lovely stuff said:
Ie...You've always had an 'axe-to-grind' where ETFC is concerned and it shows no sign of going away. <img src="/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I don't know what you mean!