E&E Rich Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 http://www.eefconline.co.uk/baseE229.html Some very clever and handsome young chap in the Epsom & Ewell FC weekly Editorial (link above) put forward the theory that Hereford and Salisbury should not be in the F.A. Vase. I recall someone at Hartley saying a few months back that it was a great opportunity to draw a big name. Obviously that's how it turned out for them and they made some money too, but how much more would they have raised had they got to Wembley? The aim of drawing a big name I can understand, especially in the FA Cup. However, there shouldn't be any big names in the Vase, surely that is the point. And this will happen more as other clubs fold and / or take up voluntary demotion. I projected at the start of the season that Hereford would play Salisbury in the Vase Final assuming they were / are kept apart and if Farnborough finish in the bottom four of the Ryman Premier they will be in the Combined Counties next year, due to the terms of the breach of their CVA. What price they keep a similar side and romp through our League next year, almost certainly being installed as next year's Vase favourites? Now we can't do anything about the League bit as clubs that fold or are demoted have to go somewhere, even if starting them at either Step 5 or Step 6 will bring unavoidable logistical issues. However, they shouldn't be able to enter the Vase which was created purely for the little clubs to have their day out at Wembley. As an Epsom & Ewell fan my club realised that benefit in the very first season. However, we didn't have a football league standard stadium and 5,000-10,000 regular supporters and a huge commercial department behind us. Yes, the FA will benefit from a Hereford v Salisbury final as the attendance will be larger than usual. But frankly, it is wrong in my opinion and is just another slap for clubs at this level who already face the "one club going up" bottleneck. I feel that any club that is demoted unusually i.e. from Step 3 or above into Step 5, or that applies for promotion only to then pull out (e.g. Flackwell Heath), or that takes voluntary demotion, (e.g. Sholing) should have some time out of the Vase, either being allowed to enter the Trophy instead or nothing. These clubs usually drop or fold for financial reasons, and I know that if those reasons are genuine, then the club concerned wouldn't suddenly be expecting or budgeting for a run to Wembley, they should be looking to consolidate, simply to survive, in the same way as Windsor have done. Quite simply, a rule should be brought in saying that: "No club can enter the F.A. Vase until they have completed two seasons at Step Five, Six or Seven, unless they have been relegated in the usual manner from a Step Four League." That way, if a club reforms or drops from higher up but stays down for two seasons, they can genuinely be called a minnow once again and are eligible to enter. Additionally, and the wording probably needs tidying up a little: "Clubs who come from above, or have a derivative or ancestor that existed above this level should be offered a place in the Trophy instead of the Vase." Now this rule doesn't cover the Flackwell situation, but that's not quite so serious. I would still like to see clubs who do this blocked for one season personally, or again allowed to enter the Trophy instead. Of course there will be slight fixture implications as Trophy week is usually different to Vase week, but they wouldn't be that major, certainly not compared to the problems League Secretaries face with the weather these days. So what do you think? Any views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnojudo Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OD's Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Totally agree. We drew Salisbury in the FA Vase and while we did well on the gate, the club would still rather have a chance of getting to Wembley. Clubs at our step just cannot compete with Herefords and Salisburys resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beano_ATMFC Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I feel that any club that is demoted unusually i.e. from Step 3 or above into Step 5, or that applies for promotion only to then pull out (e.g. Flackwell Heath), or that takes voluntary demotion, (e.g. Sholing) should have some time out of the Vase, either being allowed to enter the Trophy instead or nothing. These clubs usually drop or fold for financial reasons, and I know that if those reasons are genuine, then the club concerned wouldn't suddenly be expecting or budgeting for a run to Wembley, they should be looking to consolidate, simply to survive, in the same way as Windsor have done. Quite simply, a rule should be brought in saying that: "No club can enter the F.A. Vase until they have completed two seasons at Step Five, Six or Seven, unless they have been relegated in the usual manner from a Step Four League." That way, if a club reforms or drops from higher up but stays down for two seasons, they can genuinely be called a minnow once again and are eligible to enter. Additionally, and the wording probably needs tidying up a little: "Clubs who come from above, or have a derivative or ancestor that existed above this level should be offered a place in the Trophy instead of the Vase." I see your point, Rich. I agree with you that the domination of the Phoenix clubs in this season's FA Vase is not a good thing and I hope Camberley can go to Edgar Street and get a result. It would be good for the League and good for a club for which I also have something of a "soft spot", partly because I like lots of the people involved there. I've highlighted part of the text in red, because I can foresee problems with it. As things stand, that would prevent a reformed club from entering The FA Cup until their third season, which would almost certainly be challenged by the first club affected. That might be resolved, in part, by the last sentence within my quote from your post, in bold, about putting these clubs in the Trophy. However, that then takes us back towards the era where we had clubs playing in the Vase when they should have been in the Trophy (and vice versa; I remember Billingham Synthonia of the Northern League playing Woking in the Trophy in the 1990s). To my mind, the current split between the Trophy and Vase in terms of the Steps each competition covers is probably about right, if a little harsh on the Step 4 clubs because of the way the qualifying competition is seeded in favour of the Step 2 teams. It isn't a given that the so-called bigger clubs will automatically get to the later stages of The FA Vase - I think AFC Wimbledon's best performance was a quarter-final and AFC Rushden & Diamonds never got to Wembley in the Vase. Similarly, the last time Farnborough were in "phoenix mode" they didn't pull up trees in the competition (not that they are anywhere near as big as Hereford or Salisbury). This season is a bit of a fluke, in that there are two reformed clubs, getting massive gates, both in the Vase at the same time and taking it seriously. I'm not sure that's ever happened before! It's not unusual for those of us who arrived at Step 5 "naturally" (that is, via promotion and relegation) to harbour some feelings of resentment when these new clubs come in and dominate things; it's like they have an unfair advantage. But, given that neither Hereford or Salisbury are likely to be at Step 5 next season, maybe we just have to accept that this season is a one-off and rely on the magic of football to do its thing... starting this Saturday when the Krooners head west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Quarter final Beano? - I wish! Only played in the Vase one year, the second (all-conquering) CCL season and were knocked out early on at home by Colne of the step below! Disagree with the original post by the way.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beano_ATMFC Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Thanks, TRS. I knew AFCW had been knocked out by a Lancashire club, but for some reason I had Atherton Collieries in my mind! Mind you, the Wombles still had what most clubs would consider a decent run that season, as that tie was in the Fourth Round Proper and they started in the First Qualifying Round. This meant five games were won before Colne came to Kingsmeadow; I think the draw went "national" earlier then than it does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E&E Rich Posted February 11, 2016 Author Share Posted February 11, 2016 Yes it used to go national in the last 32 and is now the last 16. I understand the points raised, but the main reason for putting this up is that I don't believe it will be a once only situation. We will see this happening more and more, especially along the lines of Sholing dropping down voluntarily, and there will be some more much larger clubs reforming. It's inevitable. This is surely not what the Vase was for and I just believe it would be nice for the FA to see this one coming before it becomes a regular situation. I also made no reference to the FA Cup. It is an open competition. If, as I think you meant, you were referring to a delay in entering the Vase, if the rule is set in stone and is clear and unambiguous then no appeal would win and you have two choices, Trophy or nothing. Most of these clubs would have played in the Trophy in the season before so it's not that much of a hardship in my opinion. Historically there were oddities with some clubs in a league playing in one contest while the remainder were in the other but that's not what I am suggesting here. This is just for that small handful of clubs who fit these circumstances and to be honest, even a one year's abeyance would probably be sufficient. I made it two years to allow for those reformed clubs who started in Step 6, like AFC R&D for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beano_ATMFC Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 Rich, my reference to The FA Cup was deliberate, as clubs cannot enter it until they have played in either the Vase or the Trophy. The rules for those competitions are very specific about their entry criteria and the Steps from which each tournament will draw its entrants. With this in mind, if The FA prevented a reformed club from playing in The FA Vase without offering them a place in the Trophy, they would potentially be liable to "restraint of trade" action. However, unless the rules of the Trophy were altered in order to shunt phoenix clubs into that competition, The FA would be breaking their own rules in placing lower-ranked clubs there. Knowing as I do how such things work, it would be a major challenge getting the committees responsible to agree to change the rules of the two competitions to allow for "special treatment" for reformed clubs, not that those clubs would welcome being the lowest-ranked teams in the Trophy. Having looked at the list of previous Finals, I can't see a single "phoenix" club as having got there, but I can see several clubs who won it as they rose up the divisions on a tide of benefactor money; Kirkham & Wesham (AFC Fylde) and Truro City are just two. I don't think that is what The FA Vase is for. I also don't agree with you that it is "inevitable" that there will be too many "much larger" clubs reforming. Hereford are probably the biggest club to fail either in recent years or in the foreseeable future. Salisbury have "form", of course, but aren't as big a club historically. I agree with you about Sholing, whose voluntary demotion looked like "pot hunting". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krooner Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 So we get through to the Semi Finals. I am pleased that Hereford have Salisbury. 3 years ago they were playing each other in a National Conference Game. This season they are taking prize money from the FA for their involvement in the FA Vase. What about all those people that they owed money too and never paid them. An old argument but one that will rumble on. What about all those clubs who do pay their way and don't go chasing impossible dreams. They lose out as well. the other Semi FInal will at least have, what I would describe as, a proper Step 5 club making it to the final to take on a side who I really don't believe should ever be allowed in the Vase. However you dress it up it just isn't fair on proper Step 5 clubs. I don't blame either Hereford or Salisbury as they have broken no laws or rules. I do though think the FA need to take a real look at it because however you look at it this isn't a fair situation. And before I get "bitter" chucked at me you may want to talk to a couple of people on here who were well aware of my views well before we played Hereford ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the leatherhead lip Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 So we get through to the Semi Finals. I am pleased that Hereford have Salisbury. 3 years ago they were playing each other in a National Conference Game. This season they are taking prize money from the FA for their involvement in the FA Vase. What about all those people that they owed money too and never paid them. An old argument but one that will rumble on. What about all those clubs who do pay their way and don't go chasing impossible dreams. They lose out as well. the other Semi FInal will at least have, what I would describe as, a proper Step 5 club making it to the final to take on a side who I really don't believe should ever be allowed in the Vase. However you dress it up it just isn't fair on proper Step 5 clubs. I don't blame either Hereford or Salisbury as they have broken no laws or rules. I do though think the FA need to take a real look at it because however you look at it this isn't a fair situation. And before I get "bitter" chucked at me you may want to talk to a couple of people on here who were well aware of my views well before we played Hereford ! Agree with everything you have said, At the end of the day there is no way those 2 should have been allowed to enter the Vase, The FA have got this totally wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Sympathise with your point about leaving unpaid debts behind Kroons, but I don't see your logic of not allowing clubs to compete in the Vase. It's a competition for Step 5/6 clubs and they are both at Step 5, why is it not fair to 'proper' Step 5 clubs? People used to moan that resurrected clubs came in too high in the pyramid and now people are complaining they are in too low in the cup! It's nonsense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnojudo Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Massive sour grapes from Krooner. Just glad the long ball team are now out. Proper footballing sides are still in who play the ball on the deck. Good on em. Don't think Wembleys cameras could go that high anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sloughboy Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 100 percent sour grapes, an element of truth in the people having unpaid debts totally fair! Why deprive a club of a chance to play in the competition the level allows... I'm sure you would have rathered go out in front of 4000 people at a decent ground than some other venue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krooner Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Interesting that it is sour grapes when I have always held that view Hereford are a brand new club TRS so how were they allowed to start at Step 5 and not Step 6 ? Also how about clubs that go bust owing millions are not allowed to keep prize money earnt for a certain amount of time and the money used to pay back to creditors. Difficult one to manage I guess. Oh and a quick apology to Jonno for our successful style of play and will endeavour to speak with Dan to get it changed to something that passes the Jonno test Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mal316 Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Interesting that it is sour grapes when I have always held that view Hereford are a brand new club TRS so how were they allowed to start at Step 5 and not Step 6 ? Also how about clubs that go bust owing millions are not allowed to keep prize money earnt for a certain amount of time and the money used to pay back to creditors. Difficult one to manage I guess. Oh and a quick apology to Jonno for our successful style of play and will endeavour to speak with Dan to get it changed to something that passes the Jonno test Krooner, can't really work out why the FA place teams where they do, only they can explain that. As for teams going bust using the prize money to pay off creditors, no. Teams who have gone bust no longer exist and therefore the debts no longer exists. The question people sould be asking is why are those responsible for the clubs going bust allowed to start up new clubs and basically repeat the process? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VPCTFC Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Sympathise with your point about leaving unpaid debts behind Kroons, but I don't see your logic of not allowing clubs to compete in the Vase. It's a competition for Step 5/6 clubs and they are both at Step 5, why is it not fair to 'proper' Step 5 clubs? People used to moan that resurrected clubs came in too high in the pyramid and now people are complaining they are in too low in the cup! It's nonsense I agree with this. No 'reformed' club has ever won the FA Vase so what's the problem? One may win it this season, fair play to them if they do. Won't change my view. It's not as if they're three levels better than the rest of step 5. Hereford will be second in their table if Alvechurch win their games in hand, Salisbury will be six points clear if games in hand are won. Hartley Wintney are winning our league by more than either of these clubs. There's always jealousy towards clubs with bigger crowds, I think people assume they'll have better players. It took AFC Wimbledon two seasons to get out of the CCL (and they only got to round 4 of the Vase) and Guernsey only got promoted as they finished second in the one season the FA took two teams from the CCL. These clubs aren't vastly superior to others in any step 5 league and have every right to play in the Vase. Regarding debts owed by previous incarnations of clubs - that's down to UK law. Someone can own a double glazing firm that goes tits up owing loads and start another company with a similar name straight away, a football club is no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krooner Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 At no point did I suggest either Hereford or Salisbury or any other side in the Vase had broken any rules or laws of the land. Doesn't mean I think it is right as with many laws of this land My view has been and remains the same as E&ERich in terms of entry into the FA Vase. 2012/13 Sholing finished 7th in Step 4 and took voluntary relegation. In 2013/14 they won the Vase 2011/12 Spennymoor won the Northern League (for the 3rd time in a row) and did not get promoted. In 2012/13 they won the Vase. What Rich and I agree on is that neither of those sides should have been allowed to enter the Vase for those respective seasons. Just a view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRS Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 Hereford are a brand new club TRS so how were they allowed to start at Step 5 and not Step 6 ? I assume that is down to the FA ruling? Anyhow, if they started in step 6 they'd get at least 2 years in the Vase wouldn't they and you wouldn't want that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krooner Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I assume that is down to the FA ruling? Anyhow, if they started in step 6 they'd get at least 2 years in the Vase wouldn't they and you wouldn't want that Not at all TRS/ I would have them all in Step 6 and I wouldn't even let them in the Southern Combination Cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E&E Rich Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 I can certainly confirm that Krooner held this view well before the trip to Hereford and we indeed discussed it at our League match on 9th February, so the "sour grapes" people need to actually do a bit more work in terms of actual discussion rather than just lazily criticise someone for a view. The suggestion put forward is not to deny these "new" clubs the chance of entry into a National competition. They were in the Trophy before, they can stay in the Trophy if they want to. Fixture re-organisation for this is not a major issue really. Clearly some of these clubs have more clout than your typical step five or six club and that is not what the Vase was created for at all. It was to give the traditional village club an opportunity to have a great run against teams of a similar level. Effectively letting them in craps on all the hundreds of "little" clubs. Not that the FA care of course as Wembley Stadium gets flooded with thousands of Hereford or Salisbury supporters all paying silly money for food and beer and boosting the FA's coffers. I'm glad that they won't meet at Wembley personally as I would want to watch an FA Vase Final, not a Conference National League match. As for these sort of things not being an issue in the past, that is irrelevant and also incorrect as advised earlier in this thread on Spennymoor and Sholing. So what about AFC Wimbledon? That was over a decade ago and the world has changed since then. This will happen more and more in the future as so called bigger clubs chase the dream and go pear shaped, reforming at our level. I feel sorry for the clubs in the Midland and Wessex Leagues this season as all of their financial plans and budgeting have to be reworked. Yes they will have a decent attendance once a season but they might have been planning a title push that might have given them a bit of extra support, out of which might have come their club officials of the future. That was a waste of time. It remains to be seen which big club next finds itself down at Step Five, although the smart money says Farnborough if not others. By then they will be debt free and will quite likely romp through our division next season. There is nothing we can do about this. As said earlier in the thread they have to start somewhere. They'll head upwards and based on previous trends we'll see them again in about ten years. However, to give these clubs a helping hand in the Vase too will totally devalue this competition which is a crying shame and will definitely happen more and more as more clubs realise that being a big fish in a small pool is financially attractive, and with less risk as less financial outlay is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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