Tuesday 24th November On/Off

[Big J R]

No, but thought it relevant to mention here as our player got sent off for something similar. I would also reiterate that I didn't refer to this in my report as I had the information second hand, and whilst I don't doubt the authenticity of the source, it was not fair for me to put something in that was just hearsay.

 

As always in these cases and especially with swearing it is about the context, as you would never finish with any players otherwise! I am well aware of one excellent ref who likes to give it back to the players and essentially he is speaking to them the same way as they would to him. I have no problem with this whatsoever. Sometimes it is more sinister and less in jest and the source indicated that it was that type of comment.

 

As an aside I semi-jokingly suggested to the ref as he walked off at half time that I was looking forward to the second half kick off as it would be the first thing he had got right (he was seven minutes late kicking off in the first half), and I thought the Assistant was going to come back and argue with me, actually being held back by his other assistant. He had done our game on Saturday also, which was very poorly refereed and clearly held some sort of grudge as he referred to that match in his comments to me. The other assistant has complained about our bench once this season also, in our win at Ashford, which is stupid as our bench are a lot quieter than many others and certainly not as aggressive or unpleasant.

 

Our player clearly said something but the ref had no time to make any judgement on context and had the red card out almost before our player had finished speaking. It was almost as if he was just waiting for something, and whilst you cannot condone the player's action, we were just celebrating a fortunate equaliser and players are bound to let off a bit of steam. It's all about the context.

 

Finally, believe me, it's not just my wrath here. The players are seething and one of their dads accused the officials on our club facebook page of systematic cheating. I was obviously unable to comment on that officially, although seeing as this is a private account I must advise that I have massive sympathy for that viewpoint. 

 

Although the last two have been particularly poor, this year's officiating (Ashford Town and Dorking Wanderers aside) is well down on last year's from what I have seen after 20 matches and again, check out my reports from last year and you'll see very few comments about the officials in the fifty matches we played, despite the 11 sending offs we had, almost all of which were justified in my opinion.

 

As you can tell, I'm still angry about it!

 

 

I think we all gathered that, Rich !

[mal316]

WOW  !!  Anyone care to comment ?

 

It's what happens when you lose all your players and have to use last season's under 16's

[Chris Clapham]

It's what happens when you lose all your players and have to use last season's under 16's

 

Where did the players go?

[AshfordBee19]

.

Edited November 26, 2015 by AshfordBee19

[Windsor_Sec]

Where did the players go?

 

Uni, work, down the pub !  They'd reached the upper age limit Chris but unfortunately there was a lack of U17's so we had to go with the U16's from last season.  They'll take some hammerings to start with but the experience will be good to set them up for the next two years.

If the then U18 manager had listened to the idea of integrating some younger players as the season progressed instead of wanting to win every game then this transition might not have been quite so difficult for the current crop of youngsters.

I don't know if other clubs are experiencing the same issues but any decent standard players between 16 & 18 all seem to be signing up for these full time sports academy setups where education is included so they get an NVQ or whatever at the end - there are currently at least 4 of these operating in a fairly local area to us that I know of.   

[Footy Mad]

Generally speaking, and putting aside some poor individual decisions, I feel the refereeing is better this season Rich.

I do have a little concern about the quality of a few assistant referees and, in a few cases, the fitness levels here are quite concerning.

One other plus on the officials this season is an apparent concerted effort to socialise better post match. We get many of the usual suspects staying behind for a while but at a recent home game, all 3 officials were still at the club nearing 8pm. 

While I am here, I should add that most of the clubs/players we have played against, home or away, seem more sociable and approachable as well. 

 

I tend to agree about the standard of refereeing CC. I have only seen one this season who looked a little out of his depth. A few that maybe not outstanding but certainly always in control. The vast majority have been impressive

Obviously we are not always going to agree with every decision that he makes (doesn't necessarily make him wrong) but as long as he maintains control and gets the vast majority of decisions correct then that is a good starting point. Add to that the ability to man manage and a sense of humour and what more could you ask for. Oh - the confidence to admit that he made a mistake when he knows that he has

 

Assistant referees .... more difficult for me to comment as I am generally 50% of them on most games that I am at. Like referees we make mistakes but again not every one that players/managers/spectators shout at us about.

Are we worse than previous seasons .... not in general but you will get the odd bad one ... or even the odd good one having a bad game

[Jeff Hamnett TSF]

Im involved in Div one this year.  Lets be honest its entry level senior football, Prem is a just little above, and we are all here for the love of it, and sometimes because this is the highest level we can operate at.  That applies to match officials, players, administrators and the tea lady, or tea bloke.

 

 

To imply or state match officials cheat is insulting to the officials and to all of us involved.

 

I get the job of marking them, and what do I know? OK I've seen football at our level through to international level close up for 40 years. I tried reffing and packed up 10 minutes in to a friendly.  

 

Anyway I do my little club job to the best of my ability and honestly.

If we think the officials aren't doing the same, what should we do?

Sack them and officiate it ourselves?

 

Are their changing rooms always in acceptable condition, do they always get perfect communication from the clubs, a decent welcome and hospitality on the day? Do we all make them feel like they'd want to repeat the experience next week?

 

Aren't they always jacket and tie smart and look the part?

Do we club guys match that standard?

 

I don't mind if we call out match officials on here for a bad performance, we mostly know each other, but if we do, we should call out every person and club involved when they let the standards slip.

 

That would make the forum busy! 

[Smudge]

Never judge a person on how they look.Did the said Officials enter the bar after the game in question? In my experience most do,and are more than willing to explain decisions made during the game.

[Tel]

Uni, work, down the pub !  They'd reached the upper age limit Chris but unfortunately there was a lack of U17's so we had to go with the U16's from last season.  They'll take some hammerings to start with but the experience will be good to set them up for the next two years.

If the then U18 manager had listened to the idea of integrating some younger players as the season progressed instead of wanting to win every game then this transition might not have been quite so difficult for the current crop of youngsters.

I don't know if other clubs are experiencing the same issues but any decent standard players between 16 & 18 all seem to be signing up for these full time sports academy setups where education is included so they get an NVQ or whatever at the end - there are currently at least 4 of these operating in a fairly local area to us that I know of.

 

From what I've been told Ashford U18 team is mostly last years U 16's. Coming from a league where winning was the way, Ashford have found the new level challenging. Any new ream of young players will find that most games the opposition are at least equal and quite often better.

 

Two wins this week will do much for their confidence.

[duncs]

Lots of teams seem to be pandering to these youth teams,what has happened to natural selection,if a player is not up to a certain standard then they have to go down the different levels,there are many many leagues below the CCL and if thats the level your at then thats where you have to play,if a player improves then they can move up the leagues if they are asked,youth teams come and youth teams go and most of the lads fall out of senior football for a while until they are ready to compete,a whole youth team squad will have loads of players who are not ready for this level yet and its up to the managers to tell them and not destroy them before they are ready imho.

[Krooner]

Lots of teams seem to be pandering to these youth teams,what has happened to natural selection,if a player is not up to a certain standard then they have to go down the different levels,there are many many leagues below the CCL and if thats the level your at then thats where you have to play,if a player improves then they can move up the leagues if they are asked,youth teams come and youth teams go and most of the lads fall out of senior football for a while until they are ready to compete,a whole youth team squad will have loads of players who are not ready for this level yet and its up to the managers to tell them and not destroy them before they are ready imho.

What should they do then Duncs ?  Scrap their U18 team this year or work with what they have and almost certainly discover 1 or 2 decent players.  In Windsor's case I know they lost one of their best players to Maidenhead this season.  At 16 he was in the 1st team squad last season for them.  

[duncs]

The man at the helm has to introduce them into the 1st team when they are ready and not before,Kroons my fear is that a lot of good senior players are being overlooked because of this youth thing that is going on,i'm not talking about scrapping youth teams but at the moment they are getting preference because of who the managers are,its becoming a case of not what you know but who you know,thats why when i hear this bollix about rebuilding my blood boils the players are out there to have a decent side already and lots and lots will play for feck all,lets start by prioritising proven players,youth teams are getting games everywhere so why destroy some of the players when they are not ready (their time will come)we used to have reserve teams for them to come through but that system failed at a lot of clubs cos no players were coming through,how the hell then can they go straight into a 1st team if they weren't good enough for reserve teams.

[Krooner]

Don't disagree with any of that Duncs.  U18 teams are important though and I don't think anyone was suggesting they should be in the 1st team until they are ready.  Don't forget all the Senior players you talk about where U18 once and needed their chance.  Tough balancing act.

[duncs]

Its not a tough balancing act for a proper manager mate,unfortunately if you are gonna be a senior manager then you can wave goodbye to being a freind of the players,you have to be hard on them at times and its far easier if you treat them as players and not freinds,the youth team have normally been together with the same manager since they were all kids so its a sentimental relationship as well as a freindly one,also family are often involved and those players will get even extra priority.

[Davidlasting]

Don't disagree with any of that Duncs. U18 teams are important though and I don't think anyone was suggesting they should be in the 1st team until they are ready. Don't forget all the Senior players you talk about where U18 once and needed their chance. Tough balancing act.

Also at this level its the best level to test some of the potential gems.

 

Some reserve games are competitive. But nothing matches a senior league game.

[duncs]

Also at this level its the best level to test some of the potential gems.

 

Some reserve games are competitive. But nothing matches a senior league game.

Normally all the gems are long gone David,nearly impossible for anyone to slip through the net nowadays,we are up there with the best in the world when it comes to our 92 football league clubs scouting business,missing a youngster could cost a club millions so the scouts are well paid to spot them.

[Foxy10]

The man at the helm has to introduce them into the 1st team when they are ready and not before,Kroons my fear is that a lot of good senior players are being overlooked because of this youth thing that is going on,i'm not talking about scrapping youth teams but at the moment they are getting preference because of who the managers are,its becoming a case of not what you know but who you know,thats why when i hear this bollix about rebuilding my blood boils the players are out there to have a decent side already and lots and lots will play for feck all,lets start by prioritising proven players,youth teams are getting games everywhere so why destroy some of the players when they are not ready (their time will come)we used to have reserve teams for them to come through but that system failed at a lot of clubs cos no players were coming through,how the hell then can they go straight into a 1st team if they weren't good enough for reserve teams.

 

I wouldn't quite say the reserve system failed because no players were coming through. You wouldn't expect reserve teams to churn out player after player every season, maybe 2 or 3 good ones over the space of a season - just like the youth team. In some cases that happened & in others it may not have but that may be for a number of reasons other than whether they're ready for it.

 

Unfortunately reserve football has really nose dived over the last few years, in my opinion, with a lot of teams folding as a result and I think youth football has suffered indirectly because like you say Duncs, where will the young lads who may have excelled but not be quite ready yet for whatever reason play, to carry on their learning & adapt. Since the professional clubs have changed from reserve teams to U21 teams, a lot of that traditional outlook has changed from mixing young pros with those coming back from injury to progressing their younger stars. The actual U21s, or reserves if you like, are now going out on loan to gain experience. Maybe that might be a better way forward for some of these lads

[Luke]

Its not a tough balancing act for a proper manager mate,unfortunately if you are gonna be a senior manager then you can wave goodbye to being a freind of the players,you have to be hard on them at times and its far easier if you treat them as players and not freinds,the youth team have normally been together with the same manager since they were all kids so its a sentimental relationship as well as a freindly one,also family are often involved and those players will get even extra priority.

 

Although we are far from perfect and still learning ourselves I think we are on the right lines at Hartley. We make sure we dont absorb an entire 'team' into our youth set up, instead we have a squad of 22 players, relativley divided between players that are in year 11 at school (15 / 16 years old), 1st year at college (16 / 17 years old) and 2nd year college (7 / 18 years). Each year we will lose between 7 and 10 players who will be too old but we will still have another 10 or so left for a base that we then add to from our trials.

 

It means that with a constant relative young squad we wont exactly set the world on fire (if we finish half way up the Allied Counties this year thats a success) but we are aware that success is dependant on how many players we push into reserves and the first team, but as Duncs said, when they are ready. 

 

Another problem clubs have is the youth set up being divided from the firsts, and you get this amost rivalry between the two camps which just doesnt make sense as surely everyones goal is a successful first team and a good enviroment for youngsters to learn and push on. We are lucky to an extent as I am the Under 18 Manager as well as they 1st team coach and Millers / Brown regulary take sessions so we are literally one club. This helps us in turn as the few times we've played youth team boys in the first team they've been doing similar sessions ad they know what is expected of them.

 

Getting even deeper, clubs like Ascot United and Camberley Town have got it nailed to a tee, their junior set ups being almost fully integrated and they have over 70 junior teams al pushing their way through the club before they arrive at the Senior Under 18s and push on from there. I think at Junior set up's they have qualified coaches the whole way up as well which definatley helps as the basics need to be nailed by the time they reach the senior set ups.

 

Anyways I've gone off on one. In conclusion Youth set ups good - if ran properly and as part of the club and if the end goal is pushing players through, not some Dad wanting to win everything and go up the pub bragging to his mates how well little Timmy is doing,

[Luke]

I wouldn't quite say the reserve system failed because no players were coming through. You wouldn't expect reserve teams to churn out player after player every season, maybe 2 or 3 good ones over the space of a season - just like the youth team. In some cases that happened & in others it may not have but that may be for a number of reasons other than whether they're ready for it.

 

Unfortunately reserve football has really nose dived over the last few years, in my opinion, with a lot of teams folding as a result and I think youth football has suffered indirectly because like you say Duncs, where will the young lads who may have excelled but not be quite ready yet for whatever reason play, to carry on their learning & adapt. Since the professional clubs have changed from reserve teams to U21 teams, a lot of that traditional outlook has changed from mixing young pros with those coming back from injury to progressing their younger stars. The actual U21s, or reserves if you like, are now going out on loan to gain experience. Maybe that might be a better way forward for some of these lads

 

It is the fact that reserve team football is dying that is making it even harder to bring the yougnsters through. Their are plenty of reserve teams out there still, but they are pretty much just a second youth team or as you say, under 21s. The idea in the past was reserve teams were good for a mix of older senior heads helping the younger ones through, look at Paul Dadson at Camberley for example. 10 years ago the Suburban League was so strong, and (although Duncs will disagree) many of the Prem sides (and even some div1 sides) would have beaten combined counties prem first teams. it was playing in teams and against teams of this standard that was the next step up the pyramid for youngsters, but now, these days are long gone. 

 

The reason is widespread, grassroutes as a whole is on the down. Since the economic crisis money is more important than ever, people just cant give up the time that they used to. Instead, they play 5 a side for an hour on a tuesday night on the local 3g on a tuesday night which is more than enough for them. Less money also means more work hours, so less time with the family that people will claw back on a saturday.

 

Your next problem, is since the set up of all these non league academies and the amount of disalussioned youngsters. They all play for Woking academy or Basingstoke Town academy or whatever and they are sold a dream, but the reality is, sadly very few, if any will make it.

[duncs]

We've had this academy thing before on here and i must say my opinion on them has not changed i am still unconvinced about them,your point of view has changed quite a lot Luke since you've been involved with the 1st team set up at Hartley, i am pleased to see you've now got an insight into how a club is run from the top team.Senior 1st team players are a completely different animal to reserves and youth team players,as you progress to higher leagues you will see a remarkable change in attitude strength and Athleticism,people who go all the way are amazingly self centred and driven nothing will stop them from making it cos they won't let anything get in their way.