Step 4 Farce Continues

[@BedfontFeltham]

In all honesty. It was the best thing teams turning down promotion to as league that requires so much travelling and time off work. Maybe just maybe the FA might wake up now and see what's really going on

[Krooner]

Really tough one this.  Of course us on this forum have never moaned about there not being enough promotion places offered to Step 5 and the FA MUST change that and then defend clubs when they dont.  We cant have it both ways in my opinion.  I like the idea of a ban on teams who refuse promotion or ask for demotion  from being promoted as long as they are also not allowed to block clubs from being promoted.

 

At Camberley we are on the edge of 3 different leagues and I would expect us to accept whatever offer came our way for promotion.  I get the bit about changing 2 weeks later however are Flackwell saying they would have refused promotion if they had been placed in the SW straight away ?  Not sure they would.

 

All the time teams are refusing promotion the FA will never change anything to give more promotion from Step 5.

[Smudge]

Teams mainly seem to want to avoid promotion,due to the lucrative money they can make from a Vase run.Maybe a better way would be to bar them from entering the Vase if they turn down promotion to Step 4.

[Tel]

Just spent the last hour mulling over the version of a reform of the leagues by E & E Rich.

 

I know the F A are a law to themselves and if they didn't think of it it's not worth lookin at, but it is. The document must have taken hours to prepare so F A all I say is have a look.

 

Maybe County officials could help!

[E&E Rich]

Thanks Tel. I hadn't thought about the County angle and will give that some thought.

 

It's a bit radical and of course now a year out of date, but the principles are still the same. It did take a long, long time to create!

 

I have been in contact with Mike Appleby regarding that plan, and he advised that it is one of the proposals up for consideration. I should add though that he said this in November of last year and referred to a meeting coming up in the December, so maybe it has fallen by the wayside. If it has, I would be intrigued to see where it has fallen down. Then again they may have just postponed things for a while.

 

One of the underlying reasons (if I'm honest, the main reason) for trying to create something different was the issue faced by teams that have long distances to travel, especially the North / South split we see at Step Two. When you see clubs like Gloucester City, Oxford City, Brackley and Bishops Stortford playing in the Conference North, you know something isn't right!

 

Smudge's point about being blocked from the Vase for a season is also valid, maybe forcing the club to enter the Trophy for that season instead, and although this may have an unfortunate knock on effect for all fixture Secretaries, as used to be the case in the eighties when some Southern League clubs entered the Vase while others entered the Trophy, I'm sure it is a manageable one.

 

Of course if a punishment is too harsh then teams will just stay at Step Five level and not bother to apply, thereby creating a two tier structure over time with many Step Five clubs who refuse promotion becoming better than many step four clubs.

 

I used to play 8 ball pool and we had a similar issue between the distinction of professional and amateur. There were many good players who chose to remain amateur as there were many more easier (for them) competitions that they could enter, becoming big fishes in a small pool and they did this because there was not enough money in the professional game to make it worth their while to compete at that level.

 

Quite simply, the level above the level you are at always needs to be more attractive to teams and for years we have seen the Northern League, and before it the Western League too who were happy to stay where they were because of the increased travel. That was almost understandable because of being at the extremities of the country, but if clubs in middle England start passing up promotions then we really do have a problem and as I said earlier, this will happen more frequently if nothing is done.

 

I will look into travel distances and see exactly what difference Flackwell faced. Watch this space!

[E&E Rich]

Ok here are the distances:

 

Flackwell's Average journey based on the teams they would have faced (one-way)

 

Central Division: 32.86miles - S&W Division: 80.58 miles

 

Just as an aside:

 

The Hellenic League matches they faced in 2014/15: 40.34 miles

The distances travelled in 1991/92 Ryman Division 3: 44.50 miles

Our current CCL (for comparison - using Chertsey mileage as they are more or less centre point) 16.67 miles

We remain the senior league with the smallest footprint in the country!

 

Mileages aren't everything though. Although I don't have travel times, the average mph heading West would be far greater than they would heading onto the M25.

 

More relevantly, using the AA's recommended current figure of 14p per mile (sounds ambitious but there you go) this equates to a total cost for one car to go to every league game and back of:

Southern Central: £193.21 (maybe slightly more as more slow traffic on M25) - South & West £473.82.

 

An extra £280 per car at most, and even allowing for 8 club vehicles making the journey would only equate to an extra cost for the season of £2,240. Not a lot to turn promotion down for really, is it?

[Jeff Hamnett TSF]

I think another issue is timing. Players cant get the time off for midweek games at distances.

[Big J R]

Don't worry folks  !  Sepp Blatter will sort it all out !!

 

(Oh, hang on a minute)

 

[E&E Rich]

I think another issue is timing. Players cant get the time off for midweek games at distances.

Maybe, but they will still be in the League Cup, an exclusively midweek competition and you would think that the majority of the longer league journeys are scheduled for Saturdays.

 

They would have had 21 away fixtures, let's say ten were midweek. Half of them would be local ish, leaving maybe four to six midweek trips of distance. However, I would reiterate that if a player got out of work at 4pm as is often required currently, they could get to almost every South & West ground by 6pm as the traffic isn't so bad away from London.

 

Of course there could be postponements and rearrangements but they don't have nearly so many postponements at Step Four.

Edited June 24, 2015 by E&E Rich

[Rother]

And if there IS a financial shortfall just cut the playing budget.

[VPCTFC]

 

The fact is that Flackwell are near that particular border. It is a chance, indeed a racing certainty that they will get placed there in future, especially while so many clubs in Kent continue to progress which brings the Isthmian boundary further east (except for the Waltons due to Theo's involvement).

 

My point is that either you are ready for Step Four or you aren't. If your finances are so stretched just by adding a bit of travel then you shouldn't be applying anyway. Yes, I accept that being told in June is not great, but I don't see Burnham or Marlow throwing their toys out of the pram and they were moved too remember. They'll cut costs in other ways.

 

Will Flackwell Heath apply for promotion next year, especially as they will almost certainly go into the S & W next year with Marlow and Burnham already there? That's an interesting one to watch when the applications go in. The same applies for situations like Sholing who took a voluntary demotion not long ago. If they drop for financial reasons then a season or two of consolidation at this level will do them no harm. 

 

 

 

I never had you down as part of the Walton conspiracy tin foil hat brigade Rich!

Casuals are playing at Merstham this season and W&H say Theo doesn't visit the ground these days and has no involvement with the club. I remember when Wingate & Finchley had Margaret Thatcher as their president. I never saw her there and I doubt she got involved!

The Walton area is clearly Isthmian territory and always has been so my theory is that the league are fighting to keep their boundaries from moving too much which is a good thing. I know they were reluctant to take some clubs from the top of the Eastern league in the past as they didn't see it as their area.

 

Aside from that, over time the boundaries SHOULD sort themselves out now the Isthmian league has, theoretically, six relegation places. There aren't six leagues at step 5 who are wholly in Isthmian territory so the boundary should go west a bit over time. The Southern South West has the Western, Wessex and most of the Hellenic feeding it so, again, with only two relegation places, one of those should be placed in a more easterly division or force a more easterly club that way.

Of course, you also have to think of relegation from step 3 which can change things slightly. It's all very complicated.

It looks like us lot in this part of the country are back in Southern One Central territory now but who knows - maybe the Isthmian will reach these parts again in a couple of years.

[E&E Rich]

I never had you down as part of the Walton conspiracy tin foil hat brigade Rich!

Casuals are playing at Merstham this season and W&H say Theo doesn't visit the ground these days and has no involvement with the club. I remember when Wingate & Finchley had Margaret Thatcher as their president. I never saw her there and I doubt she got involved!

The Walton area is clearly Isthmian territory and always has been so my theory is that the league are fighting to keep their boundaries from moving too much which is a good thing. I know they were reluctant to take some clubs from the top of the Eastern league in the past as they didn't see it as their area.

 

Aside from that, over time the boundaries SHOULD sort themselves out now the Isthmian league has, theoretically, six relegation places. There aren't six leagues at step 5 who are wholly in Isthmian territory so the boundary should go west a bit over time. The Southern South West has the Western, Wessex and most of the Hellenic feeding it so, again, with only two relegation places, one of those should be placed in a more easterly division or force a more easterly club that way.

Of course, you also have to think of relegation from step 3 which can change things slightly. It's all very complicated.

It looks like us lot in this part of the country are back in Southern One Central territory now but who knows - maybe the Isthmian will reach these parts again in a couple of years.

It may have been in the past Russ but so was Oxford City! Also, Flackwell Heath of course. 

 

While the Waltons (and I suppose Molesey too now they are up there) remain in the Isthmian, it forces Phoenix Sports, Chatham Town etc. to cross the Dartford Tunnel which just looks wrong.

 

Maybe I should clarify my comments on Theo's involvement with Walton. He is still as far as I am aware, a named person on their officials list and Ryman sponsor the Isthmian League so I am putting two and two together, but it does stand out now and I can think of no other reason why this geographical anomaly would exist.

Edited June 29, 2015 by E&E Rich