Saturday 14th. March.

[Krooner]

Kroons I wasnt at the game hence why i didn't comment on the result OR the performances of the 2 teams as i am in absolutely no place to do so however my 3 i's comment is based only the few games ive seen of Camberley over the years.

 

As for the allowance of poor refereeing because some of us believe the league to not be good enough to warrant a competent referee... We must up our overall standards and expectations of the referees as the CCL should merely be a platform for referees to move furthur up the ladder and not just the pinnacle of their career. If this was a one off below par performance from 1 referee i could totally understand the opinion to let it slide but in my opinion the standard of nearly all the referees is not good enough. You may disagree with me as is your right but theres nothing more frustrating then the referee being the talking point of a game

 

Fair enough.  I think if you ask an independent person at the game your description of us as intimidating would not be true and I guess you must have caught as at bad times over the years to come to that view

 

As for referees I think the standard of refereeing in this league has gone up over the last few years, however this year in my opinion it has dropped slightly.  I rarely will comment on a referees performance unless I feel it is better than the standard or worse than the standard.  Our last 2 home games have resulted in draws and I commented on how I thought both referees had decent games.  Likewise we won on Saturday however I felt the referee didn't have a good game.  I am not commenting on his general standard or saying he is not a decent ref just on Saturday he was, in my opinion, poor. 

 

Only 1 ref I have ever known not to have a bad game at some point

[Gluck_ab]

So what point are you trying to make Smudge?

 

I'll hazard a guess so correct me if I'm wrong. If it's that officials cost a set amount per game and you're using that as a measure of value then the league sets the match fees so that's a cost clubs know. I'm not sure how the fee figure is arrived or if clubs have an input into it - others might though.

 

For the sake of comparison, match fees in the Contrib leagues are £45 and £30 plus £0.34 per mile for the ref and ARs respectively and in Conference South are £55 and £35 plus £0.35 per mile respectively. Do you think that represents value for money in terms of the quality of officials in those games?

 

Why don't you try and work out what (which) clubs pay their players and how much, and see if that represents better value? Or if some of that money might be of more value spent on pitch improvements, etc.

 

Making the match fee related to value or worth is an interesting argument but you need to have a baseline to make it sufficiently attractive to the officials to do it - too high and it would attract those with the wrong motivation and too low it wouldn't attract sufficient to do all (or continue to do majority of) the games.

 

I imagine the majority of refs do it because they enjoy it and like / love the game and being involved in it and not for the recompense they might get. Personally, I think what I get on the Leagues I officiate on is ok though if the fees were higher I wouldn't argue!

Edited March 16, 2015 by Gluck_ab

[E&E Rich]

Kroons I wasnt at the game hence why i didn't comment on the result OR the performances of the 2 teams as i am in absolutely no place to do so however my 3 i's comment is based only the few games ive seen of Camberley over the years.

 

As for the allowance of poor refereeing because some of us believe the league to not be good enough to warrant a competent referee... We must up our overall standards and expectations of the referees as the CCL should merely be a platform for referees to move furthur up the ladder and not just the pinnacle of their career. If this was a one off below par performance from 1 referee i could totally understand the opinion to let it slide but in my opinion the standard of nearly all the referees is not good enough. You may disagree with me as is your right but theres nothing more frustrating then the referee being the talking point of a game

Maybe it sounds as though I am defending Camberley here but as players across teams change so frequently from season to season, this comment about seeing them a few games over the years is complete b******s. My view is that you've read a lot of comments on here and jumped on the bandwagon.

 

As is often referred to on here many players from Camberley, Cove, Badshot Lea, Frimley and Sandhurst (I'm sure there are others) often move about between these clubs, yet this comment indicates that only Camberley are the bad guys. Do these players revert from being angels at their other clubs to complete thugs once they walk through the Krooner Park gates? That's the implication here. 

 

Before anyone makes some sort of comment on a club, they really ought to watch them a few times before making any inflammatory comments. That's why with all respect to VPCTFC who posted one in this thread, I tend to ignore ground hoppers views, despite being a long serving member of that club myself. They base their judgement on one single game and quite simply judgements shouldn't be made in those circumstances.  

 

Of course when a referee makes errors (no, I haven't seen the footage) they get grief for it, but every player on that field will have made mistakes and as Krooner said, for a top of the table battle you would imagine that a highly ranked referee would have got the nod, as opposed to someone who is not having a great season. It would be interesting to see some sort of midway through the season table of referee's marks, so that we as supporters are better informed.

 

I also find that half of the problems stem from the supporter's own ignorance. We had a case recently where our keeper fouled a player and conceded a penalty. "He has to go, he's the last man" was the response from someone near me. "Lucky for us there is no consistency". The player concerned was going away from goal and there were other players back, both factors that would have a bearing, but to this supporter the ref made a mistake.

 

What I am trying to say here is that of course refs make mistakes, but players and supporters and yes, club officials make them too and a bit of understanding would really help. I would like to see the FA or at least the CCL bring in a mandatory page for the match programmes where a referee puts his views and interpretations on the events of the recent past, including the guidelines that the referees are given in such circumstances. Hopefully that will increase the understanding and reduce (slightly) the criticism. 

 

How many times do we say that player x has had a mare, or that he has had a great game? Quite often, I would have thought. Hardly anyone said how good Michael Oliver was the other day in that extremely tough Premier League game last week (the teams escape me at present!), despite him being proven to be right on every big decision. I bet as soon as he has a bad day they'll be lining up to criticise him though.

 

 

Our match report from the win at Chertsey is here: We were quite good and are now in fine form, although we have a real test coming up on Saturday at home to Badshot Lea. I believe we can finish as high as eighth which would be a great achievement from a season of change.

 

http://www.eefconline.co.uk/LCN146.html

[Smudge]

So what point are you trying to make Smudge?

 

I'll hazard a guess so correct me if I'm wrong. If it's that officials cost a set amount per game and you're using that as a measure of value then the league sets the match fees so that's a cost clubs know. I'm not sure how the fee figure is arrived or if clubs have an input into it - others might though.

 

For the sake of comparison, match fees in the Contrib leagues are £45 and £30 plus £0.34 per mile for the ref and ARs respectively and in Conference South are £55 and £35 plus £0.35 per mile respectively. Do you think that represents value for money in terms of the quality of officials in those games?

 

Why don't you try and work out what (which) clubs pay their players and how much, and see if that represents better value? Or if some of that money might be of more value spent on pitch improvements, etc.

 

Making the match fee related to value or worth is an interesting argument but you need to have a baseline to make it sufficiently attractive to the officials to do it - too high and it would attract those with the wrong motivation and too low it wouldn't attract sufficient to do all (or continue to do majority of) the games.

 

I imagine the majority of refs do it because they enjoy it and like / love the game and being involved in it and not for the recompense they might get. Personally, I think what I get on the Leagues I officiate on is ok though if the fees were higher I wouldn't argue!

 

Love your comment about Clubs getting value for money,made me chuckle.Followed by love the game,not for the recompense,but if the fees were higher,I wouldn't argue.Lets put this into perspective,the officials who many have slated on here for their performance,gave of their time FREE OF CHARGE,yes FREE OF CHARGE,to officiate at charity games for this very forum.E&E mentioned Michael Olivers excellent performance in the Champions League last week,but he failed to mention his Howler of a game on Saturday. So it even happens to the best.Poor Officials would not of been given the high profile game of 1st v 2nd,hence why Mewcenary was given the game,because his previous marks from clubs would of been good.He is a decent Ref,and a very quick learner,and he would of learnt a lot from that game,which will make him an even better Ref,at a higher level for sure.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Smudge

[Krooner]

Love your comment about Clubs getting value for money,made me chuckle.Followed by love the game,not for the recompense,but if the fees were higher,I wouldn't argue.Lets put this into perspective,the officials who many have slated on here for their performance,gave of their time FREE OF CHARGE,yes FREE OF CHARGE,to officiate at charity games for this very forum.E&E mentioned Michael Olivers excellent performance in the Champions League last week,but he failed to mention his Howler of a game on Saturday. So it even happens to the best.Poor Officials would not of been given the high profile game of 1st v 2nd,hence why Mewcenary was given the game,because his previous marks from clubs would of been good.He is a decent Ref,and a very quick learner,and he would of learnt a lot from that game,which will make him an even better Ref,at a higher level for sure.

I tend to agree with your views on our ref on Saturday.

[Gluck_ab]

Maybe it sounds as though I am defending Camberley here but as players across teams change so frequently from season to season, this comment about seeing them a few games over the years is complete b******s. My view is that you've read a lot of comments on here and jumped on the bandwagon.

 

As is often referred to on here many players from Camberley, Cove, Badshot Lea, Frimley and Sandhurst (I'm sure there are others) often move about between these clubs, yet this comment indicates that only Camberley are the bad guys. Do these players revert from being angels at their other clubs to complete thugs once they walk through the Krooner Park gates? That's the implication here.

 

Before anyone makes some sort of comment on a club, they really ought to watch them a few times before making any inflammatory comments. That's why with all respect to VPCTFC who posted one in this thread, I tend to ignore ground hoppers views, despite being a long serving member of that club myself. They base their judgement on one single game and quite simply judgements shouldn't be made in those circumstances.

 

Of course when a referee makes errors (no, I haven't seen the footage) they get grief for it, but every player on that field will have made mistakes and as Krooner said, for a top of the table battle you would imagine that a highly ranked referee would have got the nod, as opposed to someone who is not having a great season. It would be interesting to see some sort of midway through the season table of referee's marks, so that we as supporters are better informed.

 

I also find that half of the problems stem from the supporter's own ignorance. We had a case recently where our keeper fouled a player and conceded a penalty. "He has to go, he's the last man" was the response from someone near me. "Lucky for us there is no consistency". The player concerned was going away from goal and there were other players back, both factors that would have a bearing, but to this supporter the ref made a mistake.

 

What I am trying to say here is that of course refs make mistakes, but players and supporters and yes, club officials make them too and a bit of understanding would really help. I would like to see the FA or at least the CCL bring in a mandatory page for the match programmes where a referee puts his views and interpretations on the events of the recent past, including the guidelines that the referees are given in such circumstances. Hopefully that will increase the understanding and reduce (slightly) the criticism.

 

How many times do we say that player x has had a mare, or that he has had a great game? Quite often, I would have thought. Hardly anyone said how good Michael Oliver was the other day in that extremely tough Premier League game last week (the teams escape me at present!), despite him being proven to be right on every big decision. I bet as soon as he has a bad day they'll be lining up to criticise him though.

 

 

Our match report from the win at Chertsey is here: We were quite good and are now in fine form, although we have a real test coming up on Saturday at home to Badshot Lea. I believe we can finish as high as eighth which would be a great achievement from a season of change.

 

http://www.eefconline.co.uk/LCN146.html

E&E

 

Good point on the addition of a page in the programme on the laws of the game. In advance of it being a mandatory requirement, as you suggest, irrespective, you could always print a particular law and the respective application of it from the back of the Laws of the Game in your programme. It's a starting point and might also help reduce the credibility given to MOTD or Sky commentators who, in the main, talk a load of cobblers based on their limited knowledge of the Laws.

[Smudge]

Never happen,unless the FA sponsor a page,as for overpaid commentators,they have the benefit of 200 replays of the incident,a Supporter does not have this advantage.How about you Gluck ab starting a thread on here 'Laws of the Game' we could have it stuck at the top of the Forum,it would get more views than any CCL Programme ever would,even Epsom and Ewells award winning one,then us the unwashed would have a better idea of what should happen,rather than guessing.

[Terrence Collina]

Here is a link to a local paper round my way of a referee who tries to explain the decision (or non decision) made by an official.  Can't say I always agree with how he explains it but normally a good read.

 

http://www.getreading.co.uk/authors/dick-sawdon-smith/

 

Gluck made a good comment on the 'professional' pundits who are normally clueless and still continue to call them rules rather than laws.  Danny Murphy said a stupid one during the Man Utd Arsenal cup match when Di Maria was sent off.  The only criticism I have of Michael Oliver on that is that he gave Di Maria a second yellow rather than a straight red. 

[Weeble]

Coves No 15 probably didn't sleep well on Sat night 2 sitters you can't miss those and expect to beat a top side

Looked like a good no holds barred game although the Cambo manager seemed to be on the pitch a couple of times when it got a bit lively

[thevoiceofreason]

Coves No 15 probably didn't sleep well on Sat night 2 sitters you can't miss those and expect to beat a top side

Looked like a good no holds barred game although the Cambo manager seemed to be on the pitch a couple of times when it got a bit lively

It was, indeed a good no holds barred game, in my opinion that I thoroughly enjoyed. When I aired my own thoughts in suggesting I felt the man in charge had a bad day at the office, it was an the understanding that we all know such things can happen to anyone and not about overall ability.

 

When it comes to the laws of the game, it might horrify/ amuse quite a few if they knew how many ex pros' progress with coaching was delayed due to failing assessments based on the laws of the game. Hand on heart, this isn't made up, I promise and might give a clue as to why pundits can show a lack of awareness of them when on the idiot box.

[NonLeague i]

I wouldn't write off a "groundhoppers views" so quickly. These views are often none biased and provide a good comparison of teams in the league. Whilst loyally following your team you might only see your opponent twice in a season a ground hopper will inevitably see them more than you. I have no qualms with where Camberley are in the league and yes players swap clubs (sometimes regularly) but that in my opinion DOESNT change the style of football a team plays so in fact YES they do adjust to the club they join and change their ways.

 

My comments weren't inflammatory and Kroons understands that this was based on admittedly the little ive seen of Camberley and may have caught them in particularly heated/volatile games. Please dont insult my intelligence to say that i cant form my own opinion and i merely follow the opinion of a forum. That in my view is inflammatory. I actually would have liked to be at that game as it looked a good battle!

 

Maybe E&E rich you should watch the video before defending the refs performance 

[thevoiceofreason]

I wouldn't write off a "groundhoppers views" so quickly. These views are often none biased and provide a good comparison of teams in the league. Whilst loyally following your team you might only see your opponent twice in a season a ground hopper will inevitably see them more than you. I have no qualms with where Camberley are in the league and yes players swap clubs (sometimes regularly) but that in my opinion DOESNT change the style of football a team plays so in fact YES they do adjust to the club they join and change their ways.

 

My comments weren't inflammatory and Kroons understands that this was based on admittedly the little ive seen of Camberley and may have caught them in particularly heated/volatile games. Please dont insult my intelligence to say that i cant form my own opinion and i merely follow the opinion of a forum. That in my view is inflammatory. I actually would have liked to be at that game as it looked a good battle!

 

Maybe E&E rich you should watch the video before defending the refs performance 

Provided they see the game, anyone would we welcome to express an opinion on it as far as I am concerned, What may be lost in the interpretation of a spectator unfamiliar with the teams is what might have gone before and putting events into a meaningful context.

 

If you're more bothered about the added time at the end of a game compromising your train home than a dramatic climax, you are undoubtedly looking at things from a different perspective to a fan of one of the teams or someone who enjoys what the league offers in terms of entertainment and will be watching CCL football next week too.

 

The 'style' debate over Cambo has been debated at length, but if they reach their target at the end of the season, I don't suppose they will be too concerned about their detractors and neither should they be.

[Krooner]

Coves No 15 probably didn't sleep well on Sat night 2 sitters you can't miss those and expect to beat a top side

Looked like a good no holds barred game although the Cambo manager seemed to be on the pitch a couple of times when it got a bit lively

Look out Bad Guy liked that comment Weebs.

 

Big game for his lot tomorrow.

[E&E Rich]

I wouldn't write off a "groundhoppers views" so quickly. These views are often none biased and provide a good comparison of teams in the league. Whilst loyally following your team you might only see your opponent twice in a season a ground hopper will inevitably see them more than you. I have no qualms with where Camberley are in the league and yes players swap clubs (sometimes regularly) but that in my opinion DOESNT change the style of football a team plays so in fact YES they do adjust to the club they join and change their ways.

 

My comments weren't inflammatory and Kroons understands that this was based on admittedly the little ive seen of Camberley and may have caught them in particularly heated/volatile games. Please dont insult my intelligence to say that i cant form my own opinion and i merely follow the opinion of a forum. That in my view is inflammatory. I actually would have liked to be at that game as it looked a good battle!

 

Maybe E&E rich you should watch the video before defending the refs performance 

I don't recall defending any performance. How could I? I wasn't at the game and a little bit of (admittedly excellent) footage won't fully suffice. You need to be there, in my humble opinion.

 

As a ground hopper who has now visited over 500 different grounds in addition to missing very few Epsom games over nearly 35 years, I see many clubs on a regular basis by your definition i.e. a few times over the years. I couldn't possibly draw a conclusion from that as they change so much. If players adjust to playing styles then by your view it must be the Manager, but do Badshot Lea now play the way Camberley did just because Darren Barnard is involved over there? I didn't say you couldn't form your own opinion, but I do believe that you have also been swayed by the opinions you have read.

 

I know many, many ground hoppers, most of whom have no interest in the club they are visiting and just see it as a "tick" on their list. They rarely contribute to the running of that club by way of additional payments for fund raising e.g. golden goal, raffle etc. while some even bring their own food! Then they go home, take their anorak off and furiously slate the club off in their report, thinking that everyone will take their views as gospel, as by not supporting either side, they must be neutral and therefore exempt from any criticism.

 

Ultimately the majority of ground hoppers are parasites, thinking that they are helping the club by deeming them worthy of being the recipients of their entrance fee. However, their subsequent criticism often puts people off visiting in the future so they actually don't help at all.

 

Now that might sound odd because as I say, I am a ground hopper myself, but you spot these things over time and I've been around quite a while now and met many. The only thing I would believe from them with any credibility is the local train or bus timetable, and certainly not their views of a team they had seen once or twice in a season.

[Smudge]

Brilliant post Rich,you forgot their moans about Programmes though.

[NonLeague i]

It seems youve lost faith in humanity that a ground hopper turns up to support non league football, we do still exist i promise you. Ive stated many a time to anyone who will listen that id rather watch an end to end non league game then a premiership 0-0. 

 

Having been an ex-player and coach i do have some knowledge of what im talking about when analysing a team. But i somewhat do wish there were MORE groundhoppers as the more people who support non league football and get through the turnstile can only help the reputation of our step. Whilst the views may be negative from time to time about the teams surely making sure non league football is brought up in a discussion is a good thing. "Bad news is better then no news at all"

[thevoiceofreason]

It seems youve lost faith in humanity that a ground hopper turns up to support non league football, we do still exist i promise you. Ive stated many a time to anyone who will listen that id rather watch an end to end non league game then a premiership 0-0. 

 

Having been an ex-player and coach i do have some knowledge of what im talking about when analysing a team. But i somewhat do wish there were MORE groundhoppers as the more people who support non league football and get through the turnstile can only help the reputation of our step. Whilst the views may be negative from time to time about the teams surely making sure non league football is brought up in a discussion is a good thing. "Bad news is better then no news at all"

When I go to watch a game, I go to enjoy myself and hope to see a good game. I will not start hyperventilating when news comes that an unpaid stalwart of a club hasn't had time to print a programme. I won't spend the afternoon at a game loudly discussing the previous nights Dog and Duck v Fighting Cock fixture, seemingly oblivious to the game I'm at either.

 

I would find leaving half an hour from the end of a game just so I could see another one a complete waste of time and suggests a lack of interest in football and more a love of colleting notches.

 

Guess I'll never be a 'groundhopper' then...I think I can live with that. ( Although I wouldn't go onto a spotters' website to put my oar into something I know little about.)

[NonLeague i]

When I go to watch a game, I go to enjoy myself and hope to see a good game. I will not start hyperventilating when news comes that an unpaid stalwart of a club hasn't had time to print a programme. I won't spend the afternoon at a game loudly discussing the previous nights Dog and Duck v Fighting Cock fixture, seemingly oblivious to the game I'm at either.

 

I would find leaving half an hour from the end of a game just so I could see another one a complete waste of time and suggests a lack of interest in football and more a love of colleting notches.

 

Guess I'll never be a 'groundhopper' then...I think I can live with that. ( Although I wouldn't go onto a spotters' website to put my oar into something I know little about.)

Completely missed every point i made. Voiceofreason? More like TalkingB***cks

[thevoiceofreason]

Completely missed every point i made. Voiceofreason? More like TalkingB***cks

Thanks for your contribution...You mean there was one?