One for the refs

[Karen Browne]

BDC - my comment was tongue in cheek

[Klinsmanwonderland]

I think its about time that players are assessed

Do you think they'll then perform better? Everytime I see an assessor at our games I always expect a terrible refereeing performance due to the fact that they are simply not allowed to or too frightened to use common sense. Linesmen are almost unbearable for the instruction they are given to either not help the referee with his decisions or their point blank refusal to make conversation, which experience shows just makes any situation worse. I've seen one or two great referees this year that have contributed to some great games but I've seen some absolute shockers too, which have just ruined perfectly good games. common sense must be allowed to be used in order for officials to manage a game effectively, to contribute to it and not allow the game to be all about them.

[Munchkin]

Pete the Greek, I assume from this conversation you are a referee / Lino that officiates on the south Mids. I also deduce that you are seriously considering reporting "Jonno" regarding his comment.

 

Now, I am completely neutral and am not an official or current player with a South Mids team, but even I know his comment was tongue in cheek and in jest, and I don't even know the bloke.

 

Are message boards like this all about a bit of banter and light hearted fun? If you are considering reporting it, I'm afraid you are doing nothing for the rapidly increasing reputation that referees are currently over fussy, have zero sense of humour and cannot relate to football banter. A sad state of affairs.

Wouldn't be the first poster he reported.

[Monkey8]

Assessors are trying to help Referees progress to the next Level. Checking players' equipment prior to games is a thankless task. Have a look if they are wearing jewellery, incorrect undershirts / undershorts, colour of sock tape, colour of ankle socks, check the studs.

 

Picking up on the colour of the goalkeepers undershirt would be a development point for the Referee. I would be surprised if the Assessor tore into the Referee on this issue but instead offered guidance.

Was told this by 3 different people after they came out of the board room but maybe I heard it wrong!

[Rebadiah Hongfield]

I've opened quite can of worms with this topic. My intention was not to have a dig at the refs, more so the people that decide these stupid rules. David De Gea wore that black & green combo in professional premier league football and nothing bad happened, there was no confusion for any officials/players/fans. Yet in ssml it wouldn't be allowed. Just pointing out how silly that rule in particular is.

 

The big wigs spend too much time coming up with these silly rules and not on the basic footballing education of the refs.

[petethegreek]

I've opened quite can of worms with this topic. My intention was not to have a dig at the refs, more so the people that decide these stupid rules. David De Gea wore that black & green combo in professional premier league football and nothing bad happened, there was no confusion for any officials/players/fans. Yet in ssml it wouldn't be allowed. Just pointing out how silly that rule in particular is.

 

The big wigs spend too much time coming up with these silly rules and not on the basic footballing education of the refs.

 

Unfortunately our colleagues higher up in the game are letting us down. A few years ago Mr Rooney was effing and blinding at Mr Poll. Everybody saw this on TV but Mr Poll did nothing when he should have sent him off.

 

That then filters down to our level and beyond.

 

No-one does a thing and it causes the confusion and anger that you quite rightly highlight in your post.

 

The 'big wigs' are those who sit on the IFAB and come up with all these changes.

 

Referees have to adhere to these changes as they are implemented in the Laws of the Game.

 

If you wish to have a go at someone then send your grievances to FIFA.

[Karen Browne]

If you wish to have a go at someone then send your grievances to FIFA.

 

Now you tell me, and there's me writing report after report 

[petethegreek]

Knock yourself out.

FIFA-Strasse 20, 
P.O. Box 8044 Zurich, Switzerland 

[Rebadiah Hongfield]

I don't want to have a go at anyone, I was just pointing out a pretty silly case and putting it out there for discussion to see what everyone thinks.

 

I actually feel sorry for the refs, they have to waste time learning these silly rules and implementing them, instead of focusing on the main thing - the footballing side.

[BigDogCol]

Does this mean that Jonno's gonna get a stern talking-to from Herr Blatter?

[Karen Browne]

ve haf vays of making you talk

[tringarmy]

Unfortunately our colleagues higher up in the game are letting us down. A few years ago Mr Rooney was effing and blinding at Mr Poll. Everybody saw this on TV but Mr Poll did nothing when he should have sent him off.

 

That then filters down to our level and beyond.

 

No-one does a thing and it causes the confusion and anger that you quite rightly highlight in your post.

 

Referees have to adhere to these changes as they are implemented in the Laws of the Game.

 

 A similar question was asked of one of the Premiership refs (can't remember who) at one of the SSML referees meetings & the Poll / Rooney case was mentioned & he referred to changing the style of refereeing depending the level you were playing at which included when he chose to issue cards etc.

 

In the Prem a player swearing from 50 yards away probably wouldn't get heard whereas there isn't much crowd noise in the SSML to drown out comments & it would be much easier to communicate to all players about swearing etc. TV cameras from 20 angles & slow motion see a lot more than 3 sets of eyes.

 

The assessors marking system at the top level was also commented on - PTG might be able to confirm, but refs start with 100 marks but will get points knocked off for things that they don't do or do incorrectly eg sock tape, under garments, a players foot in the wrong half at ko etc. In the De Gea incident the ref will have the choice of either stopping the game whilst Man Utd try to find another under shirt or just letting it ride. Again easier to delay a SSML game for 2 mins than having 50,000 people with no idea what is happening & giving the ref abuse. I think in that situation I'd go for the 1 point deduction !!

 

Howard Webb spoke of "game management" in which he used some discretion of when to issue a card depending on the game he was in charge of & trying to engineer the balance between officiating to the letter of the law & trying to keep a game flowing. Sometimes an early yellow card was appropriate but maybe in a fired up local derby he'd let the first 1 or 2 go with just warnings. That can obviously work either way. An early booking could lead to a game with lots of cards as you try to keep consistency or it could just stamp out future misconduct. Letting a poor tackle go with just a warning may mean the next challenge being much worse. The world cup final was a prime example & HW admitted the game didn't play out as he expected. They'd had pre match briefings & watched previous games to understand how Spain & Holland set up, played etc and in the lead up everyone thought it would be a great final with 2 good footballing sides. As we now know they were kicking each other all over the park!

[petethegreek]

 A similar question was asked of one of the Premiership refs (can't remember who) at one of the SSML referees meetings & the Poll / Rooney case was mentioned & he referred to changing the style of refereeing depending the level you were playing at which included when he chose to issue cards etc.

 

Poll was wrong. There is no flexibility on this. The language used by Rooney, he should have been sent off. What Poll did, or not do, let his colleagues down.

 

 

In the Prem a player swearing from 50 yards away probably wouldn't get heard whereas there isn't much crowd noise in the SSML to drown out comments & it would be much easier to communicate to all players about swearing etc. TV cameras from 20 angles & slow motion see a lot more than 3 sets of eyes.

 

Some swearing can be managed. You swear to yourself in discuss after missing a sitter then a quick word to the player would suffice. Swear at the Referee / Assistant Referee that everyone has heard then people are expecting a red card. Have a go at the Referee from a short distance that only the Referee has heard then you could use a bit of discretion as long as the comments are not over the top.

 

 

The assessors marking system at the top level was also commented on - PTG might be able to confirm, but refs start with 100 marks but will get points knocked off for things that they don't do or do incorrectly eg sock tape, under garments, a players foot in the wrong half at ko etc. In the De Gea incident the ref will have the choice of either stopping the game whilst Man Utd try to find another under shirt or just letting it ride. Again easier to delay a SSML game for 2 mins than having 50,000 people with no idea what is happening & giving the ref abuse. I think in that situation I'd go for the 1 point deduction !!

 

Referees, and Assistant Referees, in the Premier Division of the SSML are assessed and marked out of 100. You would usually start at 70 and work your way up or down depending on the performance of the official. Technical breaches such as the wrong colour sock tape / undershirt will see the Referee penalized. In the De Gea, it should have been spotted by one of the Assistant Referees. With the new assessing form at Supply League level it may be a deduction of a mark. Lower down and different forms it's 2.5 marks down the drain as it comes under Application of Law. Think about this as players next time you give the man in black grief!

 

 

 

Howard Webb spoke of "game management" in which he used some discretion of when to issue a card depending on the game he was in charge of & trying to engineer the balance between officiating to the letter of the law & trying to keep a game flowing. Sometimes an early yellow card was appropriate but maybe in a fired up local derby he'd let the first 1 or 2 go with just warnings. That can obviously work either way. An early booking could lead to a game with lots of cards as you try to keep consistency or it could just stamp out future misconduct. Letting a poor tackle go with just a warning may mean the next challenge being much worse. The world cup final was a prime example & HW admitted the game didn't play out as he expected. They'd had pre match briefings & watched previous games to understand how Spain & Holland set up, played etc and in the lead up everyone thought it would be a great final with 2 good footballing sides. As we now know they were kicking each other all over the park!

 

Spot on. Too many Referees see incidents as black or white. Card or no card. Try using the various grey's in between or "game management" as Webb puts it. Where you have an option of a word or a caution, can you use a word and take a chance that it wont effect your match control?

 

I noted that Webb had done a bit of homework to see how Spain and Holland would set up. I mentioned previously how I had gone to watch Colney Heath when they played Cockfosters a few days before I officiated them. People on this forum thought it strange but as you can see it is a common practice. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by petethegreek

[Munchkin]

Are you really comparing that to a World Cup final?

[Whitley Bay]

Are you really comparing that to a World Cup final?

It might have been the equivalent for PTG...

[LoucasX]

Are you really comparing that to a World Cup final?

If Pete prepares for a SSML match in a similar way to a World Cup final official, why wouldn't you welcome and appreciate that instead of question it?

[Munchkin]

Just find it an odd comparison and actually don't think it is common at this level. Can't remember ever bumping into an official at a game who was watching in preparation for a future game.

[Smudge]

PTG shows a level of commitment that is to be commended by us all.Managers go to watch games involviing future opponents,as to their formation,style of play.So why not Officials? Players/Managers are  creatures of habit,so best to inform yourself of what to expect.Pre warned is prearmed.Just as an aside, hope he pays an Entrance fee to watch these games.

[petethegreek]

Just find it an odd comparison and actually don't think it is common at this level. Can't remember ever bumping into an official at a game who was watching in preparation for a future game.

 

I don't know if others do it on the SSML but it works for me.

 

The game I highlighted just happened to be local to me so I went to watch.

[petethegreek]

PTG shows a level of commitment that is to be commended by us all.Managers go to watch games involviing future opponents,as to their formation,style of play.So why not Officials? Players/Managers are  creatures of habit,so best to inform yourself of what to expect.Pre warned is prearmed.Just as an aside, hope he pays an Entrance fee to watch these games.

 

Spot on, Smudge.

 

Having knowledge of potential problems helps so you can adjust your game accordingly.

 

This then decreases the chances of making a mistake or the number of mistakes.

 

Less mistakes or no mistakes mean higher marks from the Assessors which leads to a high average and thus better appointments. In the case of Referees, a high average mark over the season will lead to promotion.

 

Regarding an entrance fee, most grounds I go to will let you in for free as they recognize you but I have no problem in paying an entrance fee as this helps bolster the Clubs' finances. I also spend a bit of money in the bar so a Club is still getting something from me.