Israel a country of 'peace' ?

[Eastside Urchin]

You can't expect a state to deal with a terrorist organisation.

Israel started this conflict as being painted the big bully,the evil power but as time goes on it's clear to see that it's not as black and white as the press would make you believe.

[cup of tea]

Hamas are far from innocent in all of this and I condemn their actions. If they truly want to take the moral high ground then they need to stop firing their (albeit ineffective) rockets into Israel.

 

I've already used Northern Ireland as an example, there's still a long way to go over there but for the most part it's more peaceful that it has been.

That was achieved by peaceful negotiation, not by firing shells into Catholic housing estates in order to get rid of suspected IRA terrorists.

[missunderstood]

You can't expect a state to deal with a terrorist organisation.

Israel started this conflict as being painted the big bully,the evil power but as time goes on it's clear to see that it's not as black and white as the press would make you believe.

The first casualty of war is always the truth. I don't know who is to blame, but do know there must be a better way than killing innocent people. 

[Tringkit]

The first casualty of war is always the truth. I don't know who is to blame, but do know there must be a better way than killing innocent people. 

The IS don't seem to think so but I suppose you are on their side too..........

[missunderstood]

The IS don't seem to think so but I suppose you are on their side too..........

I'm on no-ones side, and certainly not on the side of IS whom I believe should be stopped by whatever means necessary.   

[Tringkit]

I'm on no-ones side, and certainly not on the side of IS whom I believe should be stopped by whatever means necessary.   

You should change your name to Mary..........she was contrary too

[cup of tea]

You should change your name to Mary..........she was contrary too

Oh dear, looks like we've got a wind-up merchant. You need to get some tips off Rhodes.

[Loose]

You should change your name to Mary..........she was contrary too

Steady on Tringkit, missunderstood and I might be getting on a bit but if you read his posts he's entirely consistent.

 

If he ever, rarely changes his mind, well that's a different thing and he'll say when, and surely we're all entitled to do that when we see fresh perspectives.

[Big J R]

The first casualty of war is always the truth. I don't know who is to blame, but do know there must be a better way than killing innocent people. 

 

 

Thank you, missunderstood !

 

The point I have being trying to make is that Israel does have the fire power to wipe Palestine off the map completely.    So why don't they ?

 

Well they know full well that world condemnation would bury them for ever.  They have their good points, (saving the Entebbe hostages), and in my view, their bad points, (abducting people from foreign nations to stand for war crimes).

 

Believe you me, I have no love for Islamic fundamentalist terrorists, but the Palestinians are just trying to save what God forsaken tiny bit of destroyed land they have left.

 

If Hammas goes, they will be at the mercy of the Israeli armed forces.

 

The Israelis would love to move right into Gaza.  Just think how much more access they would have to the sea.

 

Next  Please  ?????

Edited August 17, 2014 by Big J R

[Loose]

Yes of course. Israel doesn't have enough coastline already and they are desperate for just a tiny wee little itty bitty bit more JR.

 

[cup of tea]

Israel have consistently moved their borders over a period of time. They've had to do it slowly because there would be too much outcry if they did too much. There's been several occasions where they've put in an exclusion zone for safety reasons and then start building settlements on that exclusion zone.

 

Not sure about the Gaza strip though, probably be far too much hassle for a small piece of land.

 

To be fair, I believe that the majority of Israelis don't want confrontation, they just want to live their lives in peace. The problem is that their government is extremely right-wing and that makes it difficult for negotiations.

[Loose]

The trouble is that Gaza is part of Israel, it's a bit like wales is to us only miniscule. What does anyone imagine that we would do if the welsh started lobbing rockets over the border? Wales out I say!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If that doesn't get Adam back I don't know what will.

[cup of tea]

Fair point about where the Gaza Strip is.

 

Israel have been guilty in the past of ethnic cleansing but I don't think they would get away with it now (check out their history in 1948 for example).

I don't think that we would force the Welsh out of Cardiff and then build English settlements there. If we did then I would expect a reaction from the Welsh.

 

I don't condone the actions of Hamas, far from it but I can understand why they might be angry. There's a right and wrong way about going about protesting however. Nelson Mandela initially tried violence and got nowhere.

 

It needs everyone (including the US) to pull out of the whole area. If we need to protect oil supplies then we use drones etc. like the US are doing now.

[Loose]

Fair point about where the Gaza Strip is.

 

Israel have been guilty in the past of ethnic cleansing but I don't think they would get away with it now (check out their history in 1948 for example).

I don't think that we would force the Welsh out of Cardiff and then build English settlements there. If we did then I would expect a reaction from the Welsh.

 

I don't condone the actions of Hamas, far from it but I can understand why they might be angry. There's a right and wrong way about going about protesting however. Nelson Mandela initially tried violence and got nowhere.

 

It needs everyone (including the US) to pull out of the whole area. If we need to protect oil supplies then we use drones etc. like the US are doing now.

Addressing your point about ethnic cleansing in 1948 I think you may have missed the point a bit if you don't mind me saying.

 

Before 1948 the jewish people were already living in Palestine and the British (ourselves) were been forced to leave by the pre-cursor to the United Nations. Jews were arriving from Europe and elsewhere following the holocaust, supported by the US. The Jews were to have a homeland safe from being targeted for genocide ever again.

 

Britain very deliberately set out to undermine Israel at its birth by arming the arabs, disarming Jews and stockpiling their confiscated weapons leaving them open to yet another genocide this time by the arab people. Since the crusades had finished the two peoples had lived on the same land in harmony up until the Balfour Declaration in 1917.In 1947 the UN resolving the conflict and intended to partition Palestine into eventually 3 separate states. In 1947 British action caused civil war in Palestine erupting in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. A combined invasion by Egypt, Syria and Jordan (incidentally armed by again, us the British) despite assurances not to attack the Jews occupied the Arab partitioned land and attacked the jews.

 

After 10 months which saw the Israelis fighting on three sides and beating back Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian forces the Israelis retained those areas recommended by the UN Resolution forming the State of Israel. About 700,000 arabs fled or were expelled. To summarise I'm not sure how a war, initiated by 3 external arab countries could be called ethnic cleansing, however I'm not sure what history books you've been reading cup of tea lol.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Loose

[cup of tea]

History is written by the winners as the saying goes. There's quite a few facts missing from what you've said.

 

Prior to 1947, the Jewish people out in the middle-east were involved in terrorism of scales that would match Hamas, hiding behind women and children whist looking to hurt people, blowing up hotels etc., Things that we would be critical of Hamas doing now. They were always ambitious from the beginning, they claimed to my father (who was out there) that they (the Israelis) were going to take (emphasis on take) all the land in the middle-east up to the Suez Canal - Does that sound like a nation who just wanted to live in peace with a designated country to call their own and co-exist with their neighbours or one with ambitions of growth and power?

 

As for Ethnic cleansing, there is a dispute against this (unsurprisingly)  - I've taken the Wikipedia link to try to be democratic about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus - Personally, I believe that it did happen but it's open to interpretation.

 

Clearly, Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian forces failed, Britain should be ashamed of it's actions but that doesn't justify what the Israelis have done since.

[Loose]

History is written by the winners as the saying goes. There's quite a few facts missing from what you've said.

 

Prior to 1947, the Jewish people out in the middle-east were involved in terrorism of scales that would match Hamas, hiding behind women and children whist looking to hurt people, blowing up hotels etc., Things that we would be critical of Hamas doing now. They were always ambitious from the beginning, they claimed to my father (who was out there) that they (the Israelis) were going to take (emphasis on take) all the land in the middle-east up to the Suez Canal - Does that sound like a nation who just wanted to live in peace with a designated country to call their own and co-exist with their neighbours or one with ambitions of growth and power?

 

As for Ethnic cleansing, there is a dispute against this (unsurprisingly)  - I've taken the Wikipedia link to try to be democratic about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus - Personally, I believe that it did happen but it's open to interpretation.

 

Clearly, Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian forces failed, Britain should be ashamed of it's actions but that doesn't justify what the Israelis have done since.

We must just disagree. With the british intervention Arabs were killing jews at the same time. Who started it? Who can tell now, however there were two sides involved and neither were whiter than snow however I agree with you on one thing that it was shameful of our country to take sides and arm one while actively leaving the other vulnerable.

 

Since then Israel have been under attack in one form or another. The 6 Day War, kidnappings and murders, the Munich Olympics. Like Britain and the West they are under threat constantly from terrorist attack, having been nearly wiped out in Europe the jews and Israeli governments have taken a harder line, they have decided not to go gently into the night.

 

The anti-semitism taking place, overtly, covertly. even more subtly is on the rise in Europe. Blaming a religious people for what goes on after decades of being threatened in a country in the middle east are two separate things. All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing. 

Edited August 18, 2014 by Loose

[cup of tea]

Agree to disagree, like that

 

I think we can both agree that Israel have a right to exist and that they shouldn't be under threat from other countries.

 

I'd just wish the right-wing element within Israel would disappear, that would help the whole situation.

If they've been democratically elected though, then there's not a lot that anyone can do about it. 

[Loose]

Agree to disagree, like that

 

I think we can both agree that Israel have a right to exist and that they shouldn't be under threat from other countries.

 

I'd just wish the right-wing element within Israel would disappear, that would help the whole situation.

If they've been democratically elected though, then there's not a lot that anyone can do about it. 

Yes, however I feel that Israel have felt that the time for proportional responses is over.

 

The good thing about Proportional Response is that no-one criticises it. The bad thing about it is that its threat wears off. Being constantly under threat is wearing over time, deciding that you've had enough of not being able to stop a group sworn to wipe your race from the face of the Earth from kidnapping and killing your children can bring dis-proportionate responses. 

 

We are in no position as a country to criticise a dis-proportionate response obviously. I need only mention the invasion of Iraq and its occupation on the pretext that they were developing weapons of mass destruction and had been involved with 9/11. They had neither. Saudi Arabia however are still being supplied with armaments by the UK and were most definitely involved in the latter.

[Big J R]

Agree to disagree, like that

 

I think we can both agree that Israel have a right to exist and that they shouldn't be under threat from other countries.

 

I'd just wish the right-wing element within Israel would disappear, that would help the whole situation.

 

If they've been democratically elected though, then there's not a lot that anyone can do about it. 

 

 

Probably the most sensible comment on this thread, Cuppa.  And I totally agree.

 

Trouble is, that in Israel there will always be the very far right faction, probably far more right than Adolph Hitler's lot 1939-1945.

 

As long as that remains, they will push to drive every Palestinian out of Gaza for ever.

 

'Oooops !!'     Didn't Adolph have a similiar view ????

 

[Loose]

Probably the most sensible comment on this thread, Cuppa.  And I totally agree.

 

Trouble is, that in Israel there will always be the very far right faction, probably far more right than Adolph Hitler's lot 1939-1945.

 

As long as that remains, they will push to drive every Palestinian out of Gaza for ever.

 

'Oooops !!'     Didn't Adolph have a similiar view ????

 

Why are you bringing Hitler into it again. I'm sorry to say it but these comments are completely crass and incorrect. The IDF are not lining arabs up and seeing how far a bullet will go, or starving them to death before gassing them and picking over any gold fillings and teeth.

 

So far you've refused to comment on or attempt to refute that Hamas are firing rockets from behind a human shield and are deliberately putting their own people in danger.

 

I'm afraid that your ignorant comments whether by design or pure ignorance are verging if not arrived at Hate Speech, pretty vile.