Israel a country of 'peace' ?

[Big J R]

Well now we are in the middle of a 72 hour cease-fire.

 

Who-ever your \God is, I hope in his sake it holds and both sides do agree and sit down in Egypt and try and sort things out.

 

I must say, I have my doubts, though !!

[cup of tea]

To be entirely sincere let's just for a moment look at the reality. Hamas are fighting a PR war, it is Hamas itself that has broken the ceasefire every time in the last 5 years at least. While the leaders of Hamas hole up in a basement of a hospital they have told the Palestinian people to ignore the warnings from the IDF- phone calls, texts etc, warning palestinians of airstrikes - giving them adequate warning to go to shelters, leave their homes and seek safety while Hamas site their rocket launchers in and around their homes.

 

Hamas are using their citizens as a 'Human Shield', cynically decrying the deaths and injuries while firstly placing them in danger and then encouraging them to stay so that Hamas can claim some sort of moral high ground.

 

Let's imagine what we would do in Israel's place. Let's imagine some sort of conflict say perhaps with Cornwall, penned in by a boundary established by International Law, the UN etc., being armed by Iran in a holy war to push their county boundary further into Devon and England. Would we allow Cornwall to lob dozens of rockets a day into Exeter? Tunnel under Honiton in order to send death squads and kidnappers into Barnstaple with no reply? What the F would we be saying to the international community when they demand we institute yet more ceasefires only for the People's Party of Cornwall to break it yet again causing loss of life to the good people of Devon, untold economic and domestic crisis?

 

We'd tell them to sod off thank you very much.

 

Sorry for the lack of hyperbole because that is the situation and an accurate representation of an alternate reality.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very clinical way of looking at it. Perhaps I'm looking at this more passionately as my father was out in the middle east at one point and predicted what was going to happen with a great deal of accuracy (to be honest, it wasn't rocket science). I can assure you that Israel have not been the biggest victims out there - by a long way and are also nowhere near being completely innocent.

 

Firstly I think both Israel and Hamas have tried to manipulate the media. Whoever is at fault, innocent lives have been lost, that's the reality.

 

Some of these people were in clearly marked UN safe areas. Most of the rockets fired into Israel have been shot down with a US created defence grid. If Hamas fought out in the open then Israel's superior US supplied firepower would overwhelm them very quickly so they were always going to resort to desperate tactics. Not justifying it, just explaining the logistics of the situation.

 

Certainly Hamas cannot take any moral high ground, nor can Israel. Of course I feel sorry for the innocent Israelis that have lost their lives and their families and friends, what Hamas has done is utterly deplorable and cannot be justified.

 

Not sure about the West Country analogy, I think that Northern Ireland would be a better comparison as there are both political and religious differences (unless you count the Pagans!) and it's more tangible a comparison. That was resolved (rather tenuously, I'll admit) by negotiation and admittedly no interference from the outside world, or if there was, then the UK told them to sod off thank you very much  

 

Taking a Laissez-Faire attitude out there? - Yes, completely agree. That surely means the Americans as well though? That's my real issue here.

 

I believe that their attitude of arming one of the sides out there has distorted the whole region/situation, and I truly believe that more lives have been lost as a result.

[missunderstood]

Very clinical way of looking at it. Perhaps I'm looking at this more passionately as my father was out in the middle east at one point and predicted what was going to happen with a great deal of accuracy (to be honest, it wasn't rocket science). I can assure you that Israel have not been the biggest victims out there - by a long way and are also nowhere near being completely innocent.

 

Firstly I think both Israel and Hamas have tried to manipulate the media. Whoever is at fault, innocent lives have been lost, that's the reality.

 

Some of these people were in clearly marked UN safe areas. Most of the rockets fired into Israel have been shot down with a US created defence grid. If Hamas fought out in the open then Israel's superior US supplied firepower would overwhelm them very quickly so they were always going to resort to desperate tactics. Not justifying it, just explaining the logistics of the situation.

 

Certainly Hamas cannot take any moral high ground, nor can Israel. Of course I feel sorry for the innocent Israelis that have lost their lives and their families and friends, what Hamas has done is utterly deplorable and cannot be justified.

 

Not sure about the West Country analogy, I think that Northern Ireland would be a better comparison as there are both political and religious differences (unless you count the Pagans!) and it's more tangible a comparison. That was resolved (rather tenuously, I'll admit) by negotiation and admittedly no interference from the outside world, or if there was, then the UK told them to sod off thank you very much

 

Taking a Laissez-Faire attitude out there? - Yes, completely agree. That surely means the Americans as well though? That's my real issue here.

 

I believe that their attitude of arming one of the sides out there has distorted the whole region/situation, and I truly believe that more lives have been lost as a result.

I really believe its the human race as a whole that is at fault as we seem to have an incurable appetite to kill and maim anything weaker than us. The only truly peace loving pacifist British political leader in my lifetime, (Michael Foot) was ridiculed and never stood a chance. As long as all nations continue to elect mass murderers and warmongers to rule over us peace will never stand a chance. 

[cup of tea]

Didn't really know too much about Michael Foot - he was up against Saatchi and Saatchi and the right wing press so he really didn't stand a chance.

Completely agree with the last sentence, spot on.

[missunderstood]

Didn't really know too much about Michael Foot - he was up against Saatchi and Saatchi and the right wing press so he really didn't stand a chance.

Completely agree with the last sentence, spot on.

I was fortunate to have met Michael Foot on several occasions and he really was a lovely, caring and highly intelligent man who would have been a great PM. 

[Loose]

Very clinical way of looking at it. Perhaps I'm looking at this more passionately as my father was out in the middle east at one point and predicted what was going to happen with a great deal of accuracy (to be honest, it wasn't rocket science). I can assure you that Israel have not been the biggest victims out there - by a long way and are also nowhere near being completely innocent.

 

Firstly I think both Israel and Hamas have tried to manipulate the media. Whoever is at fault, innocent lives have been lost, that's the reality.

 

Some of these people were in clearly marked UN safe areas. Most of the rockets fired into Israel have been shot down with a US created defence grid. If Hamas fought out in the open then Israel's superior US supplied firepower would overwhelm them very quickly so they were always going to resort to desperate tactics. Not justifying it, just explaining the logistics of the situation.

 

Certainly Hamas cannot take any moral high ground, nor can Israel. Of course I feel sorry for the innocent Israelis that have lost their lives and their families and friends, what Hamas has done is utterly deplorable and cannot be justified.

 

Not sure about the West Country analogy, I think that Northern Ireland would be a better comparison as there are both political and religious differences (unless you count the Pagans!) and it's more tangible a comparison. That was resolved (rather tenuously, I'll admit) by negotiation and admittedly no interference from the outside world, or if there was, then the UK told them to sod off thank you very much

 

Taking a Laissez-Faire attitude out there? - Yes, completely agree. That surely means the Americans as well though? That's my real issue here.

 

I believe that their attitude of arming one of the sides out there has distorted the whole region/situation, and I truly believe that more lives have been lost as a result.

1. Avoided the Northern Ireland analogy because it was too obvious.

 

2. True that Israel have the superior weapons however Hamas are also being armed by a nation state too.

 

3. Currently there are 40,000 - or possibly less now - people sitting on a mountain being chased down by Isis for slaughter and what is the World doing?

 

In summary, who is causing the most trouble in the world currently? America? Europe? UK? Israel? Or Islam?

 

Who are the media and consequently us focusing on?

 

[cup of tea]

Have to admit I picked the Northern Ireland situation because it was obvious - a real situation as opposed to a hypothetical (and therefore more vague) one.

 

Like the summary - Can I say all of them? That ties in with Missunderstood's point above.

 

Certainly Britain and in particular Lord Balfour can take a lot of blame for interfering where they shouldn't out there - leads back to your original point about keeping out of it.

[Loose]

Have to admit I picked the Northern Ireland situation because it was obvious - a real situation as opposed to a hypothetical (and therefore more vague) one.

 

Like the summary - Can I say all of them? That ties in with Missunderstood's point above.

 

Certainly Britain and in particular Lord Balfour can take a lot of blame for interfering where they shouldn't out there - leads back to your original point about keeping out of it.

I was reminded yesterday watching something - I can't remember what now - of a part of history when a Roman Citizen could walk across the whole of the known world because the rest of the world knew what the response would be if he was harmed. Their tribes, their families, themselves - all, would be put to the sword. It was a type of response too terrible to comprehend, consequently Roman citizens could travel freely and safely.

 

These days we like to use a 'Proportional Response', something that doesn't go over the top, doesn't tend to harm non-combatents, just the odd ammo dump, an arms factory, maybe a barracks or two here and there would be destroyed, surgically.

 

The trouble is that 'Proportional Responses' have become the norm. We take out one of theirs, they take out one of ours. We sanction Russia, Putin then bans Western Imports, we assassinate a leading member of Al Qaeda, they shoot down a plane. Or such.

 

No-one is frightened of anyone any more, there's nothing to fear comprehending. So, we either leave them alone, shut down the borders, shut down aid, arming rebels/dictatorships/democracy etc, or we obliterate their tribes, villages, families and the wrongdoers.

 

Or we keep mourning the dead everywhere.

[missunderstood]

I was reminded yesterday watching something - I can't remember what now - of a part of history when a Roman Citizen could walk across the whole of the known world because the rest of the world knew what the response would be if he was harmed. Their tribes, their families, themselves - all, would be put to the sword. It was a type of response too terrible to comprehend, consequently Roman citizens could travel freely and safely.

 

These days we like to use a 'Proportional Response', something that doesn't go over the top, doesn't tend to harm non-combatents, just the odd ammo dump, an arms factory, maybe a barracks or two here and there would be destroyed, surgically.

 

The trouble is that 'Proportional Responses' have become the norm. We take out one of theirs, they take out one of ours. We sanction Russia, Putin then bans Western Imports, we assassinate a leading member of Al Qaeda, they shoot down a plane. Or such.

 

No-one is frightened of anyone any more, there's nothing to fear comprehending. So, we either leave them alone, shut down the borders, shut down aid, arming rebels/dictatorships/democracy etc, or we obliterate their tribes, villages, families and the wrongdoers.

 

Or we keep mourning the dead everywhere.

Quite a cynical analysis, but unfortunately too true for comfort. I used to think that the more economically successful countries like Germany become by the virtue of hard work, and a newly embraced philosophy of peace and harmony their example would be a blue-print  for others to follow but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Mother Nature has decided there's just too many inhabitants and wars (and disease) are her way of carrying out a natural culling. Nothing seems to make any sense now.

Edited August 7, 2014 by missunderstood

[Loose]

Quite a cynical analysis, but unfortunately too true for comfort. I used to think that the more economically successful countries like Germany become by the virtue of hard work, and a newly embraced philosophy of peace and harmony their example would be a blue-print  for others to follow but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe Mother Nature has decided there's just too many inhabitants and wars (and disease) are her way of carrying out a natural culling. Nothing seems to make any sense now.

I'd like to think I'm being a realist. While the Western World has become more liberal in its views of religion, the Muslim World is becoming more radicalised. While we want everyone to live in peace, we want to celebrate diversity or at least live and let live, the Muslims would like to convert us or kill us as apostate.

 

There is no negotiation, no live and let live, no chance of peace. It will become a question of their way or death. It is approaching time when we close them off or neutralise them, I don't want their deaths but I want us to be allowed to choose our way of life, our beliefs, laws and religions.

[missunderstood]

I'd like to think I'm being a realist. While the Western World has become more liberal in its views of religion, the Muslim World is becoming more radicalised. While we want everyone to live in peace, we want to celebrate diversity or at least live and let live, the Muslims would like to convert us or kill us as apostate.

 

There is no negotiation, no live and let live, no chance of peace. It will become a question of their way or death. It is approaching time when we close them off or neutralise them, I don't want their deaths but I want us to be allowed to choose our way of life, our beliefs, laws and religions.

I have quite a few devout Christian friends, and although they are mostly decent people they all share an intolerance of other religions, and rather strangely a hatred of gays. One even refuses to visit Brighton because she thinks its the gay capital of the world and therefore evil. I'm fairly certain though that non of them would approve of killing non Christians.

If only the world could live as John Lennon described in his song "Imagine" this planet of ours could actually be a very nice place to live in. 

Edited August 8, 2014 by missunderstood

[Big J R]

Surely, it's time to scrap the UN as it stands now and form some sort of peace force with some guts, determination and teeth !!

[missunderstood]

Surely, it's time to scrap the UN as it stands now and form some sort of peace force with some guts, determination and teeth !!

I would prefer the billions of pounds spent on boys toys for armchair warriors to be spent trying to educate everyone about the benefits of peace and harmony. Force only breeds hatred that can last for generations. 

[Big J R]

Trying to teach love and peace is all good and fine, but all this hub-bub in the middle east at the moment, is caused by religion, hence the new spate of attempted ethnic cleansing in Iraq.

 

Jews and Arabs have never got on, so teaching them love & peace must be like trying to use a chocolate tea-pot !

[Loose]

Trying to teach love and peace is all good and fine, but all this hub-bub in the middle east at the moment, is caused by religion, hence the new spate of attempted ethnic cleansing in Iraq.

 

Jews and Arabs have never got on, so teaching them love & peace must be like trying to use a chocolate tea-pot !

At what point have you ever known the jewish people or nation state to have had the objective of converting all peoples or killing them Big JR?

 

It is very hard to defend what anyone is doing in the middle east let alone Israel however you've said some pretty despicable things in this thread and I wonder if you appreciate that one side has an "Iron Dome" and the other has a human shield and yet both sides keep doing what they are doing.

 

Hamas have literally no hope of causing death or damage by sending rockets over so what is their purpose in doing so?

Edited August 9, 2014 by Loose

[Tringkit]

At what point have you ever known the jewish people or nation state to have had the objective of converting all peoples or killing them Big JR?

 

It is very hard to defend what anyone is doing in the middle east let alone Israel however you've said some pretty despicable things in this thread and I wonder if you appreciate that one side has an "Iron Dome" and the other has a human shield and yet both sides keep doing what they are doing.

 

Hamas have literally no hope of causing death or damage by sending rockets over so what is their purpose in doing so?

Hamas are terrorists..............the lefties on here love a sob story.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Tringkit

[Big J R]

The Jews fought and fought to get 'Israel' after the second world war, and then progresively started flexing their muscles.  I'm not knocking their secret service, Mossad, but Mossad has got a very dubious record world wide.  Remember 'Rainbow Warrior'  to name just one act of 'terrorism' ?   So please don't accuse me of being one-sided and painting Hammas white and the Israelis black.

 

No, I'm not condoning Hammas firing pretty ineffective missiles off into Israel, but I am accusing Israel of nothing short of war crimes.

 

Shelling and bombarding schools, knowing full well that civilians were present IS a war crime.

 

Have a look at the casualty figures.

Israelis, less than 100

Palestinians well into four figures with children accounting for a very high percentage of that total.

[Tringkit]

The Jews fought and fought to get 'Israel' after the second world war, and then progresively started flexing their muscles.  I'm not knocking their secret service, Mossad, but Mossad has got a very dubious record world wide.  Remember 'Rainbow Warrior'  to name just one act of 'terrorism' ?   So please don't accuse me of being one-sided and painting Hammas white and the Israelis black.

 

No, I'm not condoning Hammas firing pretty ineffective missiles off into Israel, but I am accusing Israel of nothing short of war crimes.

 

Shelling and bombarding schools, knowing full well that civilians were present IS a war crime.

 

Have a look at the casualty figures.

Israelis, less than 100

Palestinians well into four figures with children accounting for a very high percentage of that total.

Well being as Hamas terrorists account for only 5% of their population and use children as human shields what do you expect? Lefties love a sob story..............

[Loose]

The Jews fought and fought to get 'Israel' after the second world war, and then progresively started flexing their muscles.  I'm not knocking their secret service, Mossad, but Mossad has got a very dubious record world wide.  Remember 'Rainbow Warrior'  to name just one act of 'terrorism' ?   So please don't accuse me of being one-sided and painting Hammas white and the Israelis black.

 

No, I'm not condoning Hammas firing pretty ineffective missiles off into Israel, but I am accusing Israel of nothing short of war crimes.

 

Shelling and bombarding schools, knowing full well that civilians were present IS a war crime.

 

Have a look at the casualty figures.

Israelis, less than 100

Palestinians well into four figures with children accounting for a very high percentage of that total.

I guess I'm referring to your early statement that you were beginning to think that Adolf had had the right idea. Pretty inflammatory stuff and certainly sailing close to the wind if not across it as Hate Speech. Completely despicable and I'd like to see you repeat that face to face with any Israeli. But still, nice to see you starting to agree that Hamas aren't an innocent party while totally missing the point that Hamas missiles are an exercise in PR.

 

Of course, tunnelling under the border by Hamas, sending snatch and murder squads across to kidnap or kill Israelis couldn't be construed as war crimes? 

 

I think you've attempted to paint a pretty one sided argument and I do wonder what sources you are making your judgements upon.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Loose

[cup of tea]

Well being as Hamas terrorists account for only 5% of their population and use children as human shields what do you expect? Lefties love a sob story..............

 

So that makes it okay to murder innocent women and children then? Glad you cleared that one up.