Eastside Urchin Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Yep,Non League Football It's in a state of turmoil. Been looking at crowds outside the Conference National and there has been some shocking attendances this season all over the place. Clubs are being forced to play 4 cup competitions,many of which are being played with nowhere near enough spectators through the gates to pay for the costs of running a club. League gates are down all over the place and while there wasn't as many clubs going bust over the summer as I thought,this coming year I predict a summer of turmoil In the Non League Game. Something needs to be done and fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missunderstood Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I have been saying the same thing for years, and been slagged off for it from the likes of you, and many others. For me the answer remains the same. There's to many clubs and not enough supporters, so if non league football is to survive we need clubs to merge with their local rivals to form superclubs, and more groundshare agreements to cut costs. It would probably help if clubs had a compulsory wage cap enforced on them, although that would be difficult to monitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cup of tea Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 There's clearly clubs that are going to go under at some point. There's too much competition from other sources of entertainment for the current non-league structure to survive in my opinion. Merging local clubs will always get fans from both clubs resenting the other if there's any sort of local rivally, lt's the tribal nature of football. Because of that, I'm not sure if that will work in some cases. I think is that some of the larger non-league clubs have high running costs, get themselves into an increasing debt spiral and yet still keep spending money on players that they don't have in order to maintain their league status. If the club owns it's own ground, then you will always get property developers looking to take over for obvious reasons, that's always happened, I have no evidence but Truro could be an example of that . You are always going to get people invest in non-league clubs as a plaything without realising the costs involved, get bored of it and walk away leaving the club to sort out the mess left behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark44 Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I think it a case of generations......Non league was a lot bigger in the 60's/70's and clubs had some great rivalry's of which they will always talk about.......These fans became fans for life...... Unfortunately, this is the problem as the 90's and 00's didnt bring the same vibe and so clubs supporters are generally getting older and for want of a better word dying out....... In order to survive clubs need to involve the community and fight against the increasing technology making it easier to stay in and watch football. Our local rivals Burnham are a classic example of what is mentioned this season, playing step 3 last Tuesday (England on tv) they managed an attendance of 27, we play step 4 and still managed 210 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffin Ender Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 No club has to go under if they spend less on wages. It's bizarre that there are players in the Ryman League getting £200/£300/£400 a week. By the way, I remember going to Burnham in the mid 90s for a Southern League game and there couldn't have been more than 20/30 home fans that day. It's a small place so will always struggle for support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missunderstood Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 There's clearly clubs that are going to go under at some point. There's too much competition from other sources of entertainment for the current non-league structure to survive in my opinion. Merging local clubs will always get fans from both clubs resenting the other if there's any sort of local rivally, lt's the tribal nature of football. Because of that, I'm not sure if that will work in some cases. I think is that some of the larger non-league clubs have high running costs, get themselves into an increasing debt spiral and yet still keep spending money on players that they don't have in order to maintain their league status. If the club owns it's own ground, then you will always get property developers looking to take over for obvious reasons, that's always happened, I have no evidence but Truro could be an example of that . You are always going to get people invest in non-league clubs as a plaything without realising the costs involved, get bored of it and walk away leaving the club to sort out the mess left behind. There's clearly clubs that are going to go under at some point. There's too much competition from other sources of entertainment for the current non-league structure to survive in my opinion. Merging local clubs will always get fans from both clubs resenting the other if there's any sort of local rivally, lt's the tribal nature of football. Because of that, I'm not sure if that will work in some cases. I think is that some of the larger non-league clubs have high running costs, get themselves into an increasing debt spiral and yet still keep spending money on players that they don't have in order to maintain their league status. If the club owns it's own ground, then you will always get property developers looking to take over for obvious reasons, that's always happened, I have no evidence but Truro could be an example of that . You are always going to get people invest in non-league clubs as a plaything without realising the costs involved, get bored of it and walk away leaving the club to sort out the mess left behind. My thoughts on mergers are more to do with future generations of supporters, who wont be restricted by tribal loyalties. If mergers are done sympathetically there's no reason why the DNA of both clubs should not survive. Groundsharing is equally relevant because it cuts the stadium running costs in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cup of tea Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 I'm not saying it's a bad idea Alan, the economic benefits are obvious and there will be clubs that will fold if a compromise isn't reached. I don't think football will ever stop being tribal, shame really as I went to Maidstone on Saturday and found their fans to be really nice people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastside Urchin Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 No Alan,me and you have always argued about the vadility of Romford groundsharing at Hornchurch's home,which due to some of your bad natured fans,was hardly a roaring success as they had a nasty ability of slapping the hand that fed them.That coupled with the fact that our pitch can barely take 30 home games a season,let alone another 30 means that that particular avenue IMO is a non starter. And if you take the blinkers off,I have said the Non League game has been in trouble for a while now and have offered many ideas as to how they can help themselves more or be helped. In my opinion clubs do need to groundshare with neighbours but not in their current forms,not on poor pitches in clapped out grounds but these clubs need to come together,work with their local councils and the FA to provide new facilities,all with 4G pitches.Wages need to be properly monitored and a cap per level needs to be applied.Almost taking the game back to its amateur status.It can be done as Maidstone have showed with just one club,albeit a big one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missunderstood Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 No Alan,me and you have always argued about the vadility of Romford groundsharing at Hornchurch's home,which due to some of your bad natured fans,was hardly a roaring success as they had a nasty ability of slapping the hand that fed them.That coupled with the fact that our pitch can barely take 30 home games a season,let alone another 30 means that that particular avenue IMO is a non starter. And if you take the blinkers off,I have said the Non League game has been in trouble for a while now and have offered many ideas as to how they can help themselves more or be helped. In my opinion clubs do need to groundshare with neighbours but not in their current forms,not on poor pitches in clapped out grounds but these clubs need to come together,work with their local councils and the FA to provide new facilities,all with 4G pitches.Wages need to be properly monitored and a cap per level needs to be applied.Almost taking the game back to its amateur status.It can be done as Maidstone have showed with just one club,albeit a big one Re your last paragraph its what I have been saying for years, and if both clubs worked together along with the council it would be, IMO its the only way both clubs will ever play in a decent stadium. Not so sure about 4G pitches, and IMO the more clubs that get them will eventually bring down the cost of hiring them, and make the investment unsustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastside Urchin Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 Disagree,it will bring down the cost of producing them and fitting them.The cost of hiring them shouldn't be an issue. Most boroughs have one or two football clubs maximum,it's rare to have more,so you would only need one in each borough,and spead around those that need it,the demand would still be high enough to keep the costs substainable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missunderstood Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Disagree,it will bring down the cost of producing them and fitting them.The cost of hiring them shouldn't be an issue. Most boroughs have one or two football clubs maximum,it's rare to have more,so you would only need one in each borough,and spead around those that need it,the demand would still be high enough to keep the costs substainable Disagree,it will bring down the cost of producing them and fitting them.The cost of hiring them shouldn't be an issue. Most boroughs have one or two football clubs maximum,it's rare to have more,so you would only need one in each borough,and spead around those that need it,the demand would still be high enough to keep the costs substainable Problem is that secondary schools are also looking at 4G pitches as a source of revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eastside Urchin Posted November 27, 2013 Author Share Posted November 27, 2013 Not every school could afford them or have space for them, having one that is available from 8-6 every day would no doubt help those schools who couldn't afford one through space or funds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zippy Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Personally, I don't think that non-league is about to die (although it's fair to say it's not in the best of health at present). There is more interest in non-league now than there was years ago, and with younger people like the Fox In The Box gang getting involved and taking an interest in their local non-league club that can only be a good thing. Also, look at some of the younger people getting involved at clubs like Malvern, Ryton (I think their chairman is 25 years old!) etc. We need to encourage younger people to take more active roles at clubs, and tell the more 'elderly' members of clubs to take a young person under their wing and teach them about the club if they are interested - one day, the older club members won't be around and if nobody is there to do their job then that club will be at risk of going out of business. The main problem that non-league clubs have is they tend to be a bit 'cliquey' and usually they aren't open to new ideas or recommendations. I could probably reel off 50 or so clubs which have a 'no, nay never!' attitude towards change and modernisation, and with a closed minded mentality they obviously won't survive for much longer (in fact, I would safely say that over half of them will be crying out for help within the next five years). Society is Darwinian - it's survival of the fittest, and those clubs which can adapt and change and bring the community onside will survive. Those that choose to be apart from the community rather than be a part of it have next to no chance. The Ostrich Syndrome has to end! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missunderstood Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Personally, I don't think that non-league is about to die (although it's fair to say it's not in the best of health at present). There is more interest in non-league now than there was years ago, and with younger people like the Fox In The Box gang getting involved and taking an interest in their local non-league club that can only be a good thing. Also, look at some of the younger people getting involved at clubs like Malvern, Ryton (I think their chairman is 25 years old!) etc. We need to encourage younger people to take more active roles at clubs, and tell the more 'elderly' members of clubs to take a young person under their wing and teach them about the club if they are interested - one day, the older club members won't be around and if nobody is there to do their job then that club will be at risk of going out of business. The main problem that non-league clubs have is they tend to be a bit 'cliquey' and usually they aren't open to new ideas or recommendations. I could probably reel off 50 or so clubs which have a 'no, nay never!' attitude towards change and modernisation, and with a closed minded mentality they obviously won't survive for much longer (in fact, I would safely say that over half of them will be crying out for help within the next five years). Society is Darwinian - it's survival of the fittest, and those clubs which can adapt and change and bring the community onside will survive. Those that choose to be apart from the community rather than be a part of it have next to no chance. The Ostrich Syndrome has to end! Apart from getting younger people involved a great post Adam. People under the age of 20 are about as common as rocking horse sh1t at Romford, and I personally wouldn't take my grandchildren to Romford, or any other local non league club, because of the bad language, and the fact that the majority of fans are geriatric (like me) and all we ever talk about are the glory days 50 odd years ago. If they ever take an interest in football I will take them to Dagenham, Orient or any other club that embraces family values, and embraces the ideals of moving with the times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zippy Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 A very good post, and sadly I have to agree. True, i sometimes have a mouth on me like an Irish Navvy, but I will never use such language in front of women and children. I did have a thought the other day about non-league... maybe some non-league programmes (and matches) could be shown on the new People's Voice channel. Okay, it is hosted by a man most people will either love or hate (David Icke) but the channel is on the lookout for more content and David himself used to play football before his infamous appearance on Wogan. I don't think he'd be against having sport on his channel, in fact the mantra of his TV channel is to give a voice and platform to everybody in society. Plus, debating seven foot tall Illuminati lizards can get boring after a while! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffin Ender Posted November 27, 2013 Share Posted November 27, 2013 Boosting income is not the answer because whatever clubs bring in, they will spend that amount plus some. Professional clubs have never had more money thanks to TV deals, yet they have never been more in debt. It is all about clubs cutting wages - there is no other solution to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zippy Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 The problem then is if you take money out of it, how many players will stick around? The best players will not play for peanuts. I think that if non-league can hone, craft and grow good young players who can then be sold on in time to bigger and better clubs then that might help. If you take a look at Peterborough United (okay, not a league club I know) they get by on 'kick backs' on players that get sold on. If a club like Dorking (sorry John!) can produce a good young player and he is bought by Sutton United (sorry FITB!) for £20,000 plus extras for league appearances, goals and 15% of the next sale then that money can help Dorking out. If the same player is then bought by Swindon Town for £50,000 then Dorking will get some of the sell-on. We have to go back to the good old days of crafting a player - years ago, there seemed to be an abundance of great British talent (Sir Stanley Matthews, Stan Mortensen, Nat Lofthouse, Sir Tom Finney, Jimmy Greaves and my personal favourite player of all time John Charles). Today, how many British players are top class? Yes we've had some outstanding players in David Beckham, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Frank Lampard (Jr), Steven Gerrard and Gareth Bale but the well of British talent is starting to severely dry up and as a result the Home Nations are sliding down the FIFA World Rankings. It seems funny that the best 'crafted' things happened years ago - looking at my record collection, most of the bands in it (Queen, The Beatles, ELO, Dire Straits, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, Duran Duran, XTC to name but some) are 'yesterday's bands' yet their work has stood the test of time rather like the quality players of yesterday. In 100 years time, these bands will still be spoken about - I doubt that Lady Gaga or Justin Bieber will (if they are, it'll be as also-rans in the footnotes). I'm going to sound like a right old fart, but I think that it's synonymous of the modern liberal era where people are more 'me' focused and seem to expect life to fall in their laps. I read somewhere recently about two parents took their daughter out of Theatre School because they weren't happy that one of the teachers said that 'most of you will not get to be stars on TV'. They thought their little darling had every right to be on TV and would not listen to anybody who said otherwise. It takes hard work, effort and craft to get anywhere and anybody who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening. We need to go back in time, if we are to go forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missunderstood Posted November 30, 2013 Share Posted November 30, 2013 The problem then is if you take money out of it, how many players will stick around? The best players will not play for peanuts. I think that if non-league can hone, craft and grow good young players who can then be sold on in time to bigger and better clubs then that might help. If you take a look at Peterborough United (okay, not a league club I know) they get by on 'kick backs' on players that get sold on. If a club like Dorking (sorry John!) can produce a good young player and he is bought by Sutton United (sorry FITB!) for £20,000 plus extras for league appearances, goals and 15% of the next sale then that money can help Dorking out. If the same player is then bought by Swindon Town for £50,000 then Dorking will get some of the sell-on. We have to go back to the good old days of crafting a player - years ago, there seemed to be an abundance of great British talent (Sir Stanley Matthews, Stan Mortensen, Nat Lofthouse, Sir Tom Finney, Jimmy Greaves and my personal favourite player of all time John Charles). Today, how many British players are top class? Yes we've had some outstanding players in David Beckham, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Frank Lampard (Jr), Steven Gerrard and Gareth Bale but the well of British talent is starting to severely dry up and as a result the Home Nations are sliding down the FIFA World Rankings. It seems funny that the best 'crafted' things happened years ago - looking at my record collection, most of the bands in it (Queen, The Beatles, ELO, Dire Straits, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, Duran Duran, XTC to name but some) are 'yesterday's bands' yet their work has stood the test of time rather like the quality players of yesterday. In 100 years time, these bands will still be spoken about - I doubt that Lady Gaga or Justin Bieber will (if they are, it'll be as also-rans in the footnotes). I'm going to sound like a right old fart, but I think that it's synonymous of the modern liberal era where people are more 'me' focused and seem to expect life to fall in their laps. I read somewhere recently about two parents took their daughter out of Theatre School because they weren't happy that one of the teachers said that 'most of you will not get to be stars on TV'. They thought their little darling had every right to be on TV and would not listen to anybody who said otherwise. It takes hard work, effort and craft to get anywhere and anybody who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening. We need to go back in time, if we are to go forward. The problem then is if you take money out of it, how many players will stick around? The best players will not play for peanuts. I think that if non-league can hone, craft and grow good young players who can then be sold on in time to bigger and better clubs then that might help. If you take a look at Peterborough United (okay, not a league club I know) they get by on 'kick backs' on players that get sold on. If a club like Dorking (sorry John!) can produce a good young player and he is bought by Sutton United (sorry FITB!) for £20,000 plus extras for league appearances, goals and 15% of the next sale then that money can help Dorking out. If the same player is then bought by Swindon Town for £50,000 then Dorking will get some of the sell-on. We have to go back to the good old days of crafting a player - years ago, there seemed to be an abundance of great British talent (Sir Stanley Matthews, Stan Mortensen, Nat Lofthouse, Sir Tom Finney, Jimmy Greaves and my personal favourite player of all time John Charles). Today, how many British players are top class? Yes we've had some outstanding players in David Beckham, Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Frank Lampard (Jr), Steven Gerrard and Gareth Bale but the well of British talent is starting to severely dry up and as a result the Home Nations are sliding down the FIFA World Rankings. It seems funny that the best 'crafted' things happened years ago - looking at my record collection, most of the bands in it (Queen, The Beatles, ELO, Dire Straits, Iron Maiden, AC/DC, Duran Duran, XTC to name but some) are 'yesterday's bands' yet their work has stood the test of time rather like the quality players of yesterday. In 100 years time, these bands will still be spoken about - I doubt that Lady Gaga or Justin Bieber will (if they are, it'll be as also-rans in the footnotes). I'm going to sound like a right old fart, but I think that it's synonymous of the modern liberal era where people are more 'me' focused and seem to expect life to fall in their laps. I read somewhere recently about two parents took their daughter out of Theatre School because they weren't happy that one of the teachers said that 'most of you will not get to be stars on TV'. They thought their little darling had every right to be on TV and would not listen to anybody who said otherwise. It takes hard work, effort and craft to get anywhere and anybody who thinks otherwise is in for a rude awakening. Romford once had Nile Ranger, Maidstone had Chris Smalling and Stanstead had Dwight Gayle, all three players went on to do better tings and non of the clubs received a penny. Unless clubs can afford to develop players,and put them on paid contracts non league clubs will always lose talented young players for nothing. At Romford we are unable to pay players, but footballers still want to play for the club because they know that if they are any good another club that pays wages will sign them. We may not like it, so we just have to enjoy them while we can. 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Eastside Urchin Posted November 30, 2013 Author Share Posted November 30, 2013 It's the clubs fault if they are not on contract. If you have a special talent then they should be put on contract , in those cases I would suggest their talent wasn't actually realised by the clubs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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