Should Officials?

[Smudge]

In hard economic times for most Non League Clubs at Step 5/6,should Referees/Assistants take a drop in Fees.The reason I ask this,is at the game I attended last night,the gate receipts taken no way near covered the Cost of Officials,let alone their post match hospitality.With Crowds dropping dramatically over the past couple of seasons,it is about time that the above,should be given much thought.Referees do not do it for the Money alone surely,or do they?

[Krooner]

Smudge I am in favour of a discussion taking place about fees.

 

Would be interesting what would happen if fees were dropped around how many officials would stop doing and also if the level of dissent would drop from the players.

[Terrence Collina]

does it need to go back to the old fashioned way of mileage rather than a flat fee?

[Krooner]

It is a tough one TC.  I actually dont know what the fees are these days but when I was doing it 3 years ago I thought there was some flexibility then.

 

The biggest problem is clubs that pay their players.  Look at what a South Park poster was saying about Cray bragging about wages.  Why should we look at cutting officials fees when clubs are paying their players ?

[Whitley Bay]

It is a tough one TC.  I actually dont know what the fees are these days but when I was doing it 3 years ago I thought there was some flexibility then.

 

The biggest problem is clubs that pay their players.  Look at what a South Park poster was saying about Cray bragging about wages.  Why should we look at cutting officials fees when clubs are paying their players ?

Krooner - spot on..........

 

Smudge. On a Sunday morning, referees get paid when there are no gate receipts, the money comes from something called players 'match fees'. Whereas at Step Five most players want to be paid and certainly not pay a match fee.

 

If you're looking to reduce club expenditure, the Step Five Clubs can either stop paying players, or convince the League not to appoint 'neutral' AR's, and use 'club linos', as happens in most Sunday Leagues.............. 

[Tel]

Food for thought, how about each club putting a person or two through the Referees course and officiate on a home and away basis.

 

This could work through steps 6 and 7. Beyond that club Lino's would officiate.

 

I am sure the FA would throw this out without discussion.

 

 

 

I was in earshot at a preseason game, the Ref was asked what he wanted for doing the game when £40 was mentioned I walked away spluttering in my beer. He was local

[Smudge]

Standard Referee Fee on Sundays £30 I believe,Officials Fees at step 6 over £100 for the 3.Have seen CCL Referees officiating at Sunday games,so they are not in it for the money.Players Fines are standardised so why not Officials Fees,many Clubs in the CCL do not pay players.

[Krooner]

And many do Smudge.

 

Can you standardise fees ?  Are you paying the same from the Premiership through to Sunday football ?

[Terrence Collina]

It is a tough one TC.  I actually dont know what the fees are these days but when I was doing it 3 years ago I thought there was some flexibility then.

 

The biggest problem is clubs that pay their players.  Look at what a South Park poster was saying about Cray bragging about wages.  Why should we look at cutting officials fees when clubs are paying their players ?

Or maybe the league subscription is increased and the league pay the officials?

[Smudge]

If the League paid the Officials,you would have less Officials,reason they would have to pay P.A.Y.E.

[Footy Mad]

I think that the fees should be set and not based on mileage. This must help the clubs as they know what to budget for the whole season

 

Who decides on fees? Do clubs vote on them at their pre-season or are they set by the league?

I personally feel that they should be frozen certainly for next season and probably the following one.

 

As has been pointed out ... some clubs pay their players and some don't.

Whilst I have some sympathy with the non paying clubs that might be struggling financially I have little time for clubs that pay their players and then moan about officials fees (if there are any such clubs!)

[Lee Farmie]

Referees get a £30 match fee at our level and £20 for each lino.  Mileage is in addition and I don't think we've had a single match this year (other than Surrey Senior Cup) where the fees have been less than £100.  The league do some sort of equalisation exercise at the end of the season so the clubs with the highest match official expenditure (on grounds of mileage) get compensated. I've never actually seen evidence of this happening but the R1S we were pretty central.

 

I'm sure the fees would be set by the FA and probably the same across the country.

 

The situation is a lot worse for Youth team games where it can be difficult to collect gate money and not many people turn up anyway. It's all part of the cost of running a football club.

[Terrence Collina]

The Step 7 league I play in now the home side pays the referee and one assistant.  The away side pay the second assistant.

[Picto Cotts]

A level 4 referee, who would referee on the CCL, would run a line on the Ryman League for £30. Joint travel is mandatory, so the assistant is picked up by the referee at lets say, 12 noon from Camberley so they can arrive at say, Carshalton for 13:15, they do the game and leave the ground at approx 6pm and arrive back at Camberley for 7pm.

So the guy 'earns' £30 for 7 hours. £4.28 an hour effectively.

Obviously they don't just do it for the money. I think CCL assistant refs earn more than the Ryman but it is a flat fee with no expenses.

[chairman_afcca]

An interesting topic. Fees in Division One are £105 (£41 & 2 x £32) and Premier Division is £118 (£48 & 2 x £35), same as last year. Being a set fee with no additional travel means it is possible to budget exactly across the season. Cash flow issues can occur if you get a run of home games in any month as can happen but otherwise it should be possible to budget.

 

So, with 8 home games remaining and only the potential of 1 more cup home game (if we were to progress in the Division One cup and then be drawn at home) I know exactly how much money we must allocate to this expenditure between now and the end of the season (£840 or £945). If we had to pay a lower fee plus expenses (as Farmie says applies to SCEL) then the costs could only be estimated.

 

As the fees are set and are inclusive of travel expenses I think it is appropriate to review the levels as the costs of travelling increase that comes out of the fees. They have been fixed for the two years we have been in this League so I would expect them to increase next year. As they are specific to the league and in the league rules then I would imagine that they are set at the AGM no doubt on the recommendation of the Committee.

 

Smudge made reference to PAYE; not sure that is right but in any case as income it is the responsibility of the individual official to declare their income to the tax authorities. There may well be exemptions and would certainly be the ability to offset expenses against that income but it would stil be income that would need to be declared I would imagine.

 

The broader issue is that Clubs should have an expectation of standards of the referees and assistants. Unfortunately there is a shortage and it can feel like a thankless task at times but that isn't a reason for standards to fall.

[Windsor_Sec]

I'm not going to check back to confirm but I'm fairly certain this seasons' fees were frozen at last seasons' prices anyway !  Having experienced 'flat fees' and 'fee + mileage' I would go for 'Flat fee' everytime as you know what every match is going to cost you in advance.  Midweek games are the most difficult as you will have all three officials travelling seperately and mileages can soon add up. If you take a recent game for example we had a ref from Kent, one assistant from Surrey and one from Middx so it would have worked out at about £150 if done the 'old' way !

 

There are further changes afoot for next season where Step 5 officials will be pooled into areas larger than at present so you will have for example Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Hants, Berks & Bucks, Herts, Middx officials covering the SE Counties, CCL, Hellenic, Wessex, Spartan and any others I may have forgotten so imagine the mileage costs if [as an example]  Badshot Lea had a ref from Milton Keynes, one assistant from Kent and the other from Middx ? 

 

I wonder what shocks the FA have in store for clubs with this new idea as it will need to be either bigger 'flat fees' or the dreaded 'fee + mileage' to keep the officials on board but either way I can see it going from the present sum of £118 to something in excess of £150 which means clubs will need 25 adults @ £6 each just to pay for the officials and then you've got all your other costs on top of that [utilities, wages, etc.] !  Maybe it's a back-door way of the FA getting their regionalisation done on the sly as I can see quite a few clubs saying no thanks we'll take a drop in levels to keep things more local and subsequently cheaper !        

[VPCTFC]

They still do fee + mileage in FA Competitions. It's £40 + 40p per mile for refs and £20 + 40p per mile for linos for the first three rounds of the FA Cup but goes up as you progress through the competition. In the first round proper the ref costs £310 + mileage. The FA Vase is a bit cheaper!

 

Surrey FA competitions used to be complicated. In some cups the home team payed the officials, in some they were shared and in others it was the away team. I think it's now the away team in every competition apart from the Saturday Senior Cup which is the home team.

[Footy Mad]

I'm not going to check back to confirm but I'm fairly certain this seasons' fees were frozen at last seasons' prices anyway !  Having experienced 'flat fees' and 'fee + mileage' I would go for 'Flat fee' everytime as you know what every match is going to cost you in advance.  Midweek games are the most difficult as you will have all three officials travelling seperately and mileages can soon add up. If you take a recent game for example we had a ref from Kent, one assistant from Surrey and one from Middx so it would have worked out at about £150 if done the 'old' way !

 

There are further changes afoot for next season where Step 5 officials will be pooled into areas larger than at present so you will have for example Kent, Sussex, Surrey, Hants, Berks & Bucks, Herts, Middx officials covering the SE Counties, CCL, Hellenic, Wessex, Spartan and any others I may have forgotten so imagine the mileage costs if [as an example]  Badshot Lea had a ref from Milton Keynes, one assistant from Kent and the other from Middx ? 

 

I wonder what shocks the FA have in store for clubs with this new idea as it will need to be either bigger 'flat fees' or the dreaded 'fee + mileage' to keep the officials on board but either way I can see it going from the present sum of £118 to something in excess of £150 which means clubs will need 25 adults @ £6 each just to pay for the officials and then you've got all your other costs on top of that [utilities, wages, etc.] !  Maybe it's a back-door way of the FA getting their regionalisation done on the sly as I can see quite a few clubs saying no thanks we'll take a drop in levels to keep things more local and subsequently cheaper !        

 

I could be wrong (frequent occurrence) but I think that the FA will only appoint the referees (Level 4 officials). It is rare for assistants on supply leagues to be level 4 as there aren't enough to go round (and they are assisting on contributory league games when not reffing at supply league level) so I would envisage that supply league assistants be appointed by the supply leagues as they are at present. 

[Big J R]

At last, an interesting and illuminating discussion withoy any sniping.

 

On this subject, I honestly don't know what the answer is !!  There are so many permutations and possibilities.

[jertzee]

I think people need to look at the bigger picture.

 

Without referees there are no games. Simple.

 

Look at amateur games across the whole country - the players PAY subs, this covers the pitch hire and the referees.

The costs of the pitch are as important as the cost of the referees.

 

I referee Little League - I get paid nothing - all the refs there are volunteers ensuring that kids get free football. If we charged there would be no free football for kids with trained referees.

 

I also referee junior football on Sundays but once I factor in the cost of my training course, kit, travel costs etc etc I don't really make any money out of it.

 

If people think that paying a lower amount than is paid now would be the answer then you are in for a shock.

Factor in the abuse and soon you wil have no referees at all.

 

Every year the amount of referees reduces. Drop the "expenses" they get and the fall out will be even greater.

 

If you want a target go for the FA and the Premier League.

The  FA doubled the costs of the referees course overnight  the other year, at a time when they got more money than ever from the TV deals.

 

CCL clubs have running costs of electricity, rent, rate etc etc...referes costs are in that too.

For me, fixed costs work best.

Referees aren't biased or cheats - get local ones, keep the costs down and fix them, just like in junior football.

 

But if anyone needs to be targetted, then target the FA.