Thatcher myths exploded....

[RalphC]

Whether you are a true blue fan of the Iron Lady or will be opening the bubbly at the celebratory party at Trafalgar Square on Saturday, it is worth getting your facts straight. So here are 7 thought-provoking myths which both sides ought to appreciate being punctured.

 

 

1) She killed manufacturing

 

British factories increased output by 7.5% during her premiership. Output grew a further 4.9% by 1997. Curiously, it was under Labour that the decline hit. By the end of Brown’s tenure at Number 10, manufacturing output was lower than the day Thatcher left office. The manufacturing share of GDP fell almost continuously – as it did in pretty much every Western nation.

 

 

2) “Everybody hates Thatcher”

 

A Guardian ICM poll gives the Iron Lady a 16-point net-approval rating, with half of Brits saying she was “good for Britain”. And it’s not a de mortuis bounce. In September a YouGov poll revealed only two politicians in the nation were in net positive approval territory: Boris Johnson and Margaret Thatcher. David Cameron polled at minus 18, Ed Miliband at minus 29, and George Osborne at minus 53.

 

 

3) Scargill wished to negotiate

 

Thatcher went to war with the mining unions. But her adversary’s role is often overlooked. Arthur Scargill was the boss of the National Union of Mineworkers, and what sort of a man was he?

In an extraordinary interview with BBC 5Live in 2000, Scargill reminded us that he was a Stalinist who adamantly supported the USSR, and suggested the Russian gulags - in which millions perished - might not have existed (prompting the listener who’d asked him about it to draw a parallel with David Irving’s holocaust denials). Famously, when asked how much losses a pit could make before being considered for closure, Scargill replied “the loss is without limits”.

 

 

On the eve of the strikes in 1984 energy minister Peter Walker put together a deal offering miners another job or a voluntary redundancy package, plus £800m investment in mining. He told Thatcher: “I think this meets every emotional issue the miners have. And it’s expensive, but not as expensive as a coal strike”. Thatcher replied “You know, I agree with you”.

Scargill turned down the offer, vetoed the expected ballot of miners to decide whether to strike, and, called a strike (Scargill later wrote about his decision in the Guardian).

Scargill’s politics eventually proved too extreme for his erstwhile political allies on the left, and he ended his career isolated and mocked by his fellow socialists. These days he declines to give interviews.

 

 

4) The Belgrano should not have been sunk

 

Even the Argentine military don’t buy this myth. The misunderstanding comes from the nature of the 200-mile area Exclusion Zone. But the zone was a warning to neutral vessels, not an attempt to confine the conflict exclusively to the zone. Rear Admiral Allara, in charge of the Malvinas task force which included the Belgrano, said: “the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano”. The Belgrano’s captain Hector Bonzo confirmed: “‘It was an act of war, lamentably legal.”

Bonus tip: The Belgrano had been a US navy ship in a former life, and survived the attack on Pearl Harbor.

 

 

5) Thatcher started the end of the coal industry

 

Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson who served from 1964 to 1970 and again from 1974 to 1976 closed 290 pits to Thatcher’s 160. In 1967alone there were 12,900 forced redundancies.

Between 1957 and 1963, 264 pits also closed.

 

 

Source: BBC

Closure of the pits

 

6) “There is no such thing as society”

 

Read the full quote and it is clear Thatcher meant the reverse. Here is the full quote from an interview given to Women’s Own in 1987:

“I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand ‘I have a problem, it is the Government’s job to cope with it!’ or ‘I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!’ ‘I am homeless, the Government must house me!’ and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing!

“There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first… There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate.”

 

 

7) She chose inflation over jobs

 

The Philips Curve plots unemployment against inflation. It illustrates the trade-off: as one falls the other rises, and vice versa. In healthy economies the curve is tight to the X and Y axes meaning both are low. In dysfunctional economies the trade-off exists, but both are high. Thatcher’s goal was to reduce inflation at the expense of unemployment, so that part is true. But her goal was to drag the UK’s Philips Curve back towards the X and Y axis. In plain English: she pursued low long-term unemployment and inflation at the cost of short-term unemployment. A more complicated trade-off than is commonly appreciated.

 

BONUS MYTH: She called Nelson Mandela a “terrorist”

 

One more myth: that Thatcher dismissed Nelson Mandela as a “terrorist”. We can find no evidence of this. What is usually quoted is her statement in 1987 when she described the ANC as a “terrorist organisation”.

 

David Cameron has described her statement as a “mistake”. But the context is interesting. It came in the aftermath of a speech in 1986 when Winnie Mandela endorsed the “necklacing” of political opponents. For the uninitiated, necklacing is the placing of a burning tyre over the head of the victim, to kill. She said: “with our boxes of matches and our necklaces we shall liberate this country.”

 

The “football team” which formed her bodyguard were notoriously violent.

 

The struggle for freedom was not entirely peaceful. At the end of the Eighties more than 5,000 were killed in skirmishes between the ANC and the rival Inkatha Freedom Party.;

 

Regarding apartheid, here’s what Mangosuthu Buthelezi, the former Inkatha Freedom Party, had this to say:

 

“She was a voice of reason during apartheid and listened attentively to my plea against sanctions and economic disinvestment, which we both recognised would hurt the poorest of our people the most.”

 

“I was privileged to visit [baroness] Thatcher at 10 Downing Street in 1986, and was honoured when she specifically travelled to Ulundi to visit me as the chief minister of the erstwhile KwaZulu government.” He said never before had an international dignitary shown such respect for black leadership.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/politics/7-most-annoying-thatcher-myths/5218.article

[missunderstood]

She was such a great leader her own party dumped her, which is probably the only decent thing the Tories have ever done for the working class of this country.

[cup of tea]

Ah, the power of Google.

 

Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics so the saying goes.

 

Manufacturing went down according to these stats.

 

http://www.guardian....thatcher-charts

[missunderstood]

My son was having chemotherapy during some of the Thatcher years and there was quite a few high profile cases of kids dieing because the the drugs needed was deemed too expensive. I remember one of Thatchers health ministers walking into the ward unannounced one day for a photo opportunity and I have never witnessed such hatred from doctors, nurses, and parents in my life.

 

I feel sorry for future generations of history students who will have to read through so many conflicting views of the Thatcher years, and their grades could be decided on what side of the political spectrum the examiners come from.

[Eastside Urchin]

Hopefully not from the left

[RalphC]

She was such a great leader her own party dumped her, which is probably the only decent thing the Tories have ever done for the working class of this country.

 

So you do not disagree with any of it then?

 

Could have sworn that Blair also left during his term when he had failed the country along with Labour. By then the country was in dire straits.

[Eastside Urchin]

Don't think Alan liked Blair.

 

Lets face it,thatcher did 3 terms,that's a long time.Was always going to happen that after the 3rd one many thought she was too old,almost stagnating and that it needed a shake up,that's politics for you

[cup of tea]

So you do not disagree with any of it then?

 

Could have sworn that Blair also left during his term when he had failed the country along with Labour. By then the country was in dire straits.

 

I disagree with some of it though.

 

Agree with the bit about Scargill, bloke was a t*at. I see that even the NUM thinks he's scum now. Mines were already closing and were going to continue to close.

Scargill attempted to bring down the government and Thatcher stopped him. No problems with Thatcher there.

 

Belgrano, the official statement from the Argentine Chancellery completely contradicts the statement you posted, also breaking UN resolution 502 in the process.

 

Manufacturing actually dropped (your stats are wrong, think about it - Unemployment rose from 1.2million to over 3million - that's the Government's own statistics, where did those job losses come from? Manufacturing must have been a factor) Please check the stats I've posted. Admittedly the trend was already down before Thatcher came into power.

 

Please also notice that poverty worsened under Thatcher (not surprising with the increased unemployment) - So much for a society with more opportunity for all.

 

Anyone can copy and paste from another website, it doesn't make it correct though Ralph, it's just someone else's opinion.

 

In my opinion, things got worse when Thatcher left because of the problems that had been stored up when she was in power. It's the same with the current coalition having to deal with the mess that Labour left behind.

[Eastside Urchin]

Mining is the issue that seems to be the problem for many and it was a union led revolt which any government SHOULD stop and they did.

The bloke was a complete twat as was livingstone,both a thorn in the side of Thatcher but that's about it.Her with the help of the forces dismantled them in a ruthless way and I for one am happy they did so,that's what a proper government should do.

 

Lets face it,it was hardly a great place to be In the late 70s and 80s compared to now,there was always going to be poverty,always had.It still wasn't a great deal of time since the end if world war 2,not in terms of history.The previous teniur and even ones before that had struggled and the Tories were always going to get a big slice of the blame when in fact many things were wrong under the previous government

Edited April 12, 2013 by Eastside Urchin

[missunderstood]

Mining is the issue that seems to be the problem for many and it was a union led revolt which any government SHOULD stop and they did.

The bloke was a complete twat as was livingstone,both a thorn in the side of Thatcher but that's about it.Her with the help of the forces dismantled them in a ruthless way and I for one am happy they did so,that's what a proper government should do.

 

Lets face it,it was hardly a great place to be In the late 70s and 80s compared to now,there was always going to be poverty,always had.It still wasn't a great deal of time since the end if world war 2,not in terms of history.The previous teniur and even ones before that had struggled and the Tories were always going to get a big slice of the blame when in fact many things were wrong under the previous government

 

You wasn't even born in the 70s and probably only saw the 80s through a child's eyes, so how can you say its better now.? IMO that period was far better than it is now, and England was certainly a more decent place to live and raise a family. Thatcher created division and the greed is good society and destroyed the social fabric that made Britain such a great place to live. For that alone she was despised by millions of Brits, and even in death will never be forgiven.

 

The only reason I can think of why working class Tories who don't have a pot to piss in, and even less to look forward to hate the unions is pure jealousy because being part of the union movement gave us far more than many of the union bashing bigots will ever get from a conservative government.

Edited April 12, 2013 by missunderstood

[Eastside Urchin]

Will have to look at my birth certificate again,could of sworn I was born in the very early 70's.

But don't let that ruin a good story

[BUFC]

You wasn't even born in the 70s and probably only saw the 80s through a child's eyes, so how can you say its better now.? IMO that period was far better than it is now, and England was certainly a more decent place to live and raise a family. Thatcher created division and the greed is good society and destroyed the social fabric that made Britain such a great place to live. For that alone she was despised by millions of Brits, and even in death will never be forgiven.

 

The only reason I can think of why working class Tories who don't have a pot to piss in, and even less to look forward to hate the unions is pure jealousy because being part of the union movement gave us far more than many of the union bashing bigots will ever get from a conservative government.

 

You really are an idiot Alan...........im a working class tory and what i have earned and own without the help of unions would make your leafy street pension funded lifestyle seem like chicken feed

 

God bless Maggie RIP

[missunderstood]

You really are an idiot Alan...........im a working class tory and what i have earned and own without the help of unions would make your leafy street pension funded lifestyle seem like chicken feed

 

God bless Maggie RIP

 

I was talking about working class Tories without a pot to piss in, and if you earn a great living and pay your taxes then I congratulate you. Some people are good at running businesses and others (like me) cant handle the pressure or just don't want the hassle. Society needs a good mix of both types of people and Thatcher helped and encouraged the entrepreneurs but did nothing for the ordinary folk that all businesses need to thrive,and thats why she's still hated to this day, even in death.

[Hookey]

Not everyone can be a captain of industry. If everyone in the army were Generals, who would fight the battles.

 

Nothing wrong with empowering people to be everything they can be, but you can't just leave the rest to rot.

[Eastside Urchin]

Neither should you bend over backwards to help those that simply don't want to be helped

[Hookey]

Neither should you bend over backwards to help those that simply don't want to be helped

 

Agreed. But just because you're not one, doesn't mean you're the other.

[BUFC]

Agreed. But just because you're not one, doesn't mean you're the other.

 

Are you one or the other!?

[missunderstood]

Will have to look at my birth certificate again,could of sworn I was born in the very early 70's.

But don't let that ruin a good story

 

Didn't realise you was quite as old as that.

 

When I was about your age my house was paid for and I was looking to buy a second property. Myself and my workmates worked in a unionised environment and was definitely far better off than those that worked for non unionised companies.

 

I was bought up to believe it was every generations responsibility to make the world a better place for our children, but thanks to millions of my baby boomer peers falling for Thatchers property/share owning democracy crap, we have shamefully failed the very people we are supposed to love the most.

Edited April 12, 2013 by missunderstood

[Hookey]

Are you one or the other!?

 

LOL. I'm semi-retired at 53, thanks largely to 30 years in BT with a pension and benefits secured by the now defunct National Communications Union. But I grafted my nuts off for it. I was orphaned at 16 and worked as hard as I could from that day to be where I am now. I was never a governor but was a brilliant front line grunt.

Edited April 12, 2013 by Hookey

[BUFC]

Didn't realise you was quite as old as that.

 

When I was about your age my house was paid for and I was looking to buy a second property. Myself and my workmates worked in a unionised environment and was definitely fer better off than those that worked for non unionised companies.

 

I was bought up to believe it was every generations responsibility to make the world a better place for our children, but thanks to millions of my baby boomer peers falling for Thatchers property/share owning democracy crap, we have shamefully failed the very people we are supposed to love the most.

 

There you go again talking crap,,,,,,

 

my house is paid for- and the second and third

 

son is being paid for to get uni degree and drives a new motor

 

daughter has had a property bought for her.............

 

and not a unionist in sight thank feck