"Fit and Proper Person Test"

[spotteddog]

Does anyone know whether the fit and proper person test that the FA and premier league have adopted extends to non-league football? If so, how far down the 'pyramid' does it go?

 

Also, is the criteria set out in a document?

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

A very good question, Spotted Dog.

 

The short answer, I believe, is no. Clubs at a higher level (Football League and Premier League) can afford to do their own searches on would-be investors via background checks. I'm not so sure that clubs lower down the 'pecking order' have either the time or inclination too (whether they should is another matter).

 

If you (not personally, but generally) were in charge of a club, and you were desperately struggling, I bet you would give anything to get a rich investor in. The problem then is 'are they Ronseal' (i.e. do they do exactly what they say they do?)

 

Cast your mind back a few years with then League 2 strugglers Notts. County. The side then had only just survived a drop into the Conference Premier, and had no money and an owner hated by the fans in John Armstrong-Holmes. Enter, from stage left, a group called Munto who exercised a takeover of the club and promised to take Notts. to the Premiership in five seasons. They apparently forked out money for Sol Campbell and got Sven Goran Eriksson in as manager! Amazing times, and Notts. County fans could hardly believe it was true. It wasn't, as we all now know, and the 'backers' soon vanished.

 

It is nigh but impossible in non-league to check that everything is 100% 'kosher', and that old thing called trust is of paramount importance. Can you be 100% sure where the money for your local club is coming from?; Can you trust the intentions of the latest board member?; Can you be sure that the investor who approached your club recently actually has the money that they say they have? Is the money from the proceeds of drugs or pornography etc?

 

As for a document on criteria for fit and proper people in non-league, I'm pretty sure that there isn't one. Clubs will always have to rely on common sense, when dealing with would be investors, and they will always be at the mercy of predators and those with less than honest intentions. How you safeguard these clubs is a matter for the FA, and I believe that an insurance policy for clubs needs to be brought in to prevent them from being killed off.

 

We've already seen the likes of Chester City, Merthyr Tydfil and Northwich Victoria get shafted by crooked owners, and that has to stop. Non-League and the FA need to get teeth over this, because (ad-libing the Manic Street Preachers) 'if you tolerate this, then your club could be next.'

[missunderstood]

It would probably make more sense to the FA to make non league more rationalized, and a return to amateur football for clubs playing below conference level, rather than trying to check a prospective owners bank balance and inside leg measurement. Any club caught paying wages could be expelled from the FA Cup for a minimum of one year.

[spotteddog]

Thank you for the replies.

 

Firstly, I agree whole heartedly with the succinct point made by MissUnderstood. I would also go so far as to dismantle the 'pyramid' and 'step' system which seems to breed misplaced ambition. As with the old Isthmian system of a closed league, it did not prevent clubs 'moving on, (such as the original Wimbledon, Maidstone) when they wanted to play at a higher standard.

 

Some years ago there was a proposal to re-start the Athenian League by a small group of clubs with their focus on the game itself, and not ground gradings and hard-standing around the pitch. This was crushed by the FA and the IL. Yet some years later, many of the clubs who were interested in forming this small league of 'friends', were cast adrift by the IL.

 

If someone was to propose a local league of clubs, playing as amateurs, keeping travelling to a decent limit (ie, Southend to Forest Gate on a Tuesday Night is ridiculous) and allowing the clubs to be empowered to run the thing, then I am for it.

 

The Mayor of Simpleton's response is wholly correct and many clubs have succumbed to the advent of an apparent messiah and then fuund it was a false dawn. I think the FA might ought to look into this, even at non-league level. Wasn't there a club in SE London being used a money-laundering exercise some years ago and, since it blew up (and people went to HMP etc) the club has fallen considerably from their lofty profile.

 

Perhaps a few clubs ought to get together to discuss this and get onto the FA to put something in place.

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

I think the club Spotted Dog refers to was the now defunct Croydon Athletic (now reformed as AFC Croydon Athletic), but I could well be wrong.

 

The problem with the FA is if they were that lax over Notts. County and with Portsmouth (and the associated seemingly never-ending saga) then how are they ever going to take the 'poorer relation' of Non-League seriously?

 

The bias is clearly there; I recall that when my late Grandfather's best friend worked in the Department of Transport in the 1980s he told him that over 3,000 people individually dealt with roads. 135 dealt with trains, and he was one of the 135. His area of the DoT was largely ignored.

 

For the roads, read the Premier League. For the trains, read non-league.

 

I believe that any would-be investor should have at least two forms of ID and a bank letter and/or an accountant's statement indicating that the funds are real and should sign a legal contract with the club stating that the ground will only be used for football unless there is a ground move pending. This would block off an investor from turning the club into a housing development by the back door.

 

The problem is if Mr. Moneybags approached your club tomorrow with £50k in a case, would you shake hands?

[missunderstood]

I think the club Spotted Dog refers to was the now defunct Croydon Athletic (now reformed as AFC Croydon Athletic), but I could well be wrong.

 

The problem with the FA is if they were that lax over Notts. County and with Portsmouth (and the associated seemingly never-ending saga) then how are they ever going to take the 'poorer relation' of Non-League seriously?

 

The bias is clearly there; I recall that when my late Grandfather's best friend worked in the Department of Transport in the 1980s he told him that over 3,000 people individually dealt with roads. 135 dealt with trains, and he was one of the 135. His area of the DoT was largely ignored.

 

For the roads, read the Premier League. For the trains, read non-league.

 

I believe that any would-be investor should have at least two forms of ID and a bank letter and/or an accountant's statement indicating that the funds are real and should sign a legal contract with the club stating that the ground will only be used for football unless there is a ground move pending. This would block off an investor from turning the club into a housing development by the back door.

 

The problem is if Mr. Moneybags approached your club tomorrow with £50k in a case, would you shake hands?

 

The problem is that when you know that whatever money you put into a non league club there's very little chance of ever getting it back, so it can hardly be called an investment, and when the money runs out you get vilified by supporters who have never put their own money into their club, but expect others to do so.

 

IMO its probably best to enjoy the good times, and accept that one day the money needed will become unsustainable, and you will need to find another club to watch.

[Eastside Urchin]

Supporters do put their money into clubs,every time they go through the turnstile,every time they buy food,drink,merchandise,raffle tickets etc etc they are contributing in the same way as investors,towards the clubs coffers

[Beano]

Does anyone know whether the fit and proper person test that the FA and premier league have adopted extends to non-league football? If so, how far down the 'pyramid' does it go?

 

Also, is the criteria set out in a document?

 

The "Fit & Proper Persons Test" (FPPT) no longer exists. It was replaced on 1st August by the "Owners & Directors Test", (ODT) the regulations for which are available via The FA website:

http://www.thefa.com/~/media/Files/TheFAPortal/governance-docs/rules-of-the-association/owners-and-directors-test.ashx

 

The ODT is intended to be a more thorough check of a person's credentials than the original FPPT was and applies to all clubs in the Premier League, Football League and Steps 1-4 of the National League System, but only if they are limited companies or PLCs. Unincorporated associations (ie members' clubs) are outside the scope of the rules, but very few clubs at Steps 1-4 aren't incorporated these days.

 

Whether limited or not, all clubs are supposed to submit accounts to their County FA and, in some cases, their League as well and the Southern League requires certain financial information from its clubs on a quarterly basis.

[missunderstood]

Supporters do put their money into clubs,every time they go through the turnstile,every time they buy food,drink,merchandise,raffle tickets etc etc they are contributing in the same way as investors,towards the clubs coffers

 

Agreed, but how many supporters make a contribution to the people who are owed money when a club goes into administration. The truth is that the majority of fans couldnt give a monkeys about anyone their club are in dept to as long as their club survives.

[Eastside Urchin]

None and they shouldn't have to.Its not nice to lose money through business,especially in that way but its a risk you take when you give someone an account.I have been a victim if it in a previous business venture and a big sum for me,I blame myself for being naive,no one else,yes it shouldn't happen but its part of life,you move on,dust yourself off and go again.

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

The same here, Eastside. I lost a LOT of money when I first started up my current business by going in on a partnership. The swine did a runner and I was left holding the financial baby.

 

Alan, I agree to a point about returning to the days of amaetur football, but even that has to be financed somehow. Money, for me, is not the problem - it is the waste and abuse of money that is the problem. I remember ex-Leyton Orient manager John Sitton saying recently that the 'volcano' of money is blowing the wrong way. Money is going out at the top of the Premier League and not being re-distributed where it needs to be. If Premier League clubs were told to donate an amount to a Non-League Survival Pot (even as a tax-break) then that fund could be used by clubs in crisis.

[missunderstood]

The same here, Eastside. I lost a LOT of money when I first started up my current business by going in on a partnership. The swine did a runner and I was left holding the financial baby.

 

Alan, I agree to a point about returning to the days of amaetur football, but even that has to be financed somehow. Money, for me, is not the problem - it is the waste and abuse of money that is the problem. I remember ex-Leyton Orient manager John Sitton saying recently that the 'volcano' of money is blowing the wrong way. Money is going out at the top of the Premier League and not being re-distributed where it needs to be. If Premier League clubs were told to donate an amount to a Non-League Survival Pot (even as a tax-break) then that fund could be used by clubs in crisis.

 

I never could understand the relaxed attitude some people have to dept. I always found the threat of a county court judgement coupled with an honest explanation on the negativity it would have on their financial lives was usually enough.

 

Its also difficult to understand why Premier League clubs should be expected to bale out failing non league clubs, especially when most of the big clubs are already millions of pounds in dept. IMO it could also have the effect of encouraging irresponsible, financially frivolous non league clubs to be even more careless with someone else's money.

[Eastside Urchin]

For people our age,we are used to debt,from the age of 16/18 we are given credit for this and credit for that etc

[missunderstood]

For people our age,we are used to debt,from the age of 16/18 we are given credit for this and credit for that etc

 

Didn't know that 16 year olds could get credit cards, if true its disgusting.

 

Most of my generation was brought up to believe being in debt was shameful.

[Eastside Urchin]

I got an overdraft when I was 16,by 18 I was 3 grand in debt.

My parents only debt is/was their mortgage,sadly our generation have Been bought up with credit this and credit that,I no longer have my debt or cards,although my credit rating is excellent,I have been told that I have to get a credit card,use it,show I can pay I off to have a chance of being approved for a mortgage,this is all because of the debt I was in as a youngster and then latter with my previous business

[missunderstood]

I got an overdraft when I was 16,by 18 I was 3 grand in debt.

My parents only debt is/was their mortgage,sadly our generation have Been bought up with credit this and credit that,I no longer have my debt or cards,although my credit rating is excellent,I have been told that I have to get a credit card,use it,show I can pay I off to have a chance of being approved for a mortgage,this is all because of the debt I was in as a youngster and then latter with my previous business

 

I was told that because I pay my credit card off in full every month my credit rating is poor. Dont how much truth there is in that though.

[Eastside Urchin]

Apparently,it helps your credit rating if you have debt and are seen to manage it

[missunderstood]

Apparently,it helps your credit rating if you have debt and are seen to manage it

 

I was told exactly the same thing, and advised to take out a loan,even though I didnt need one.

[KevinB]

Back to topic.

 

It would appear that non-league football clubs are more vulnerable that their loftier counterparts. One only has to remember the grounds sold and 'groundshares', clubs closed and bankrupted etc.

 

Surely they must act?

[Eastside Urchin]

We never went off topic,all relevant