League v Non League

[Ace1]

In the Scotland debacle I see that Dundee have been promoted to the Prem League. Dunfirmline finished in the relegation place. They have decided to promote the team from the division below instead of reprieving the relegated side. Why do we not do that in Non-League football? Too many times teams are saved (year after year in some cases) instead of promoting another team and giving them a chance in the higher division! Do we not think that a team who finishes second and have had a successful season are better placed then a team who finish bottom?

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

I think it's a good idea, and it's sad to see Dunfermline threaten legal action after being denied a return to the SPL. They weren't good enough to stay up last year, so they should start this season in SL1.

 

I saw on another site that Rangers fans are boycotting the 25 clubs who voted against them - could be a few Scottish clubs that get into trouble this season,,, chickens coming home to roost maybe?

 

On a separate issue, Ace, what's your opinion on the news that Mick McCarthy might be the new Nottingham Forest manager?

[Ace1]

I think it's a good idea, and it's sad to see Dunfermline threaten legal action after being denied a return to the SPL. They weren't good enough to stay up last year, so they should start this season in SL1.

 

I saw on another site that Rangers fans are boycotting the 25 clubs who voted against them - could be a few Scottish clubs that get into trouble this season,,, chickens coming home to roost maybe?

 

On a separate issue, Ace, what's your opinion on the news that Mick McCarthy might be the new Nottingham Forest manager?

 

He could be good for the club, honest and forthright, just what we need! It needs to be sorted quickly as we only have 6 first team players at the moment!!! I have heard that he ruled himself out earlier today!!!

[NICE GUY]

Talking of coming second. Earlier posts mentioned that there was a possibilty for THIS season only that 2 could well be promoted up from the CCL Premier ?

 

Can Whitelaw make any definite confirmation on this matter please.........could make the league more interesting !

[inbetweener]

the wessex league in recent years have promoted teams that have finished even lower than 2nd am sure once they did promote a team that finished 5th /6th into the premier division. I am not sure i agree with promoting teams that finish 5th or 6th but agree with ace that a 2nd /3rd place team should be given a chance after having a good season they deserve the chance.

 

on forest ace why do you only have 6 players at the club , and were you happy to see cotteril go?

[Smudge]

Talking of coming second. Earlier posts mentioned that there was a possibilty for THIS season only that 2 could well be promoted up from the CCL Premier ?

 

Can Whitelaw make any definite confirmation on this matter please.........could make the league more interesting !

 

A good point Nice Guy,this needs to be clarified before the Season Starts,Corinthian Casuals avoided relegation for many seasons due to the goalposts being moved in the Ryman.Just imagine Windsor,Guernsey,Finishing 1,2,Would the Temptation to promote be overwhelming.CLARITY NEEDS TO BE ESTABLISHED BEFORE A BALL IS KICKED.

[Green_Fingers]

Talking of coming second. Earlier posts mentioned that there was a possibilty for THIS season only that 2 could well be promoted up from the CCL Premier ?

 

Can Whitelaw make any definite confirmation on this matter please.........could make the league more interesting !

 

A good point Nice Guy,this needs to be clarified before the Season Starts,Corinthian Casuals avoided relegation for many seasons due to the goalposts being moved in the Ryman.Just imagine Windsor,Guernsey,Finishing 1,2,Would the Temptation to promote be overwhelming.CLARITY NEEDS TO BE ESTABLISHED BEFORE A BALL IS KICKED.

 

Guys, the only thing clear is that following the recent Step 5 review extra spaces may be available at Step 4 to be filled by teams from Step 5. This is due to the Ryman League increasing its membership by 2 extra teams per Step 4 division (4 teams in total) at the end of this season. Who fills though spaces won't get decided until the season ends - it is hoped they would be Southern based Step 5 teams but knowing how the FA work they could just move teams around from other Leagues.

 

See the exact wording of the FA document which announced this earlier this year:

 

 

"At a meeting of the Football Association Leagues Committee held yesterday at Wembley Stadium, the Final Report from the Step 5/6 Review Group, containing a number of recommendations was considered.

 

By way of background, the Review Group was established by the Leagues Committee in 2011 to look at a possible reduction in the number of Step 5 divisions from 14 to 12 for the commencement of season 2013/2014. Following an initial meeting with all competitions in July 2011 there followed an extensive consultation period during which all Step 5/6 competitions were met on an individual basis to seek their views on this matter.

 

The initial remit of the Group was altered to take into account the feedback from these meetings. In the early part of 2012 the Group held a series of meetings to which all Step 5 leagues, their member clubs and County Football Associations were invited to consider the suggestion for change.

 

As a result of these meetings the Review Group, taking into account both the feedback from the discussions and correspondence received, complied their Final Report and the following recommendations were agreed by the Leagues Committee yesterday...

 

That the process of reducing Step 5 leagues from 14 to 12 was deemed unworkable and the initial suggestion withdrawn.

 

That, in order to continue to compete at Step 5 of the National League System, ALL clubs must meet the National Ground Grading Category F in FULL by 31 March 2013. Clubs that do not meet these requirements WILL be relegated to an appropriate Step 6 division/competition.

 

In addition all Leagues must fully comply with the Regulations for the Establishment and Operation of the National League System, Standardised Rules and National Ground Grading Document.

 

That all Step 5 divisions must have a minimum of 20 clubs with a maximum of 22 clubs from the commencement of season 2013/2014.

 

That the Leagues Committee would, in future, in conjunction with the appropriate leagues, manage the promotion/relegation process between Step 5 and Step 6 and that as from the end of season 2012/2013 clubs would be placed into “feeder pools” and allocated the most appropriate geographical division.

 

That, with effect from Season 2013/2014, the Premier Divisions of the Isthmian, Northern Premier and Southern Football Leagues (Step 3) be increased to 24 clubs.

 

That, with effect from Season 2013/2014 and in order to create 14 relegation places at Step 4, the Isthmian League Division 1 North and Division 1 South (Step 4) be increased to 24 clubs with each relegating 3 clubs to Step 5, subject to any club issues arising during or after the completion of the playing season. It was noted that the Northern Premier and Southern Leagues have no desire to increase to 24 clubs for their Step 4 divisions. This will mean that a number of additional clubs will be given the opportunity to be promoted from Step 5 to Step 4 for season 2013/2014, the process is to be agreed.

 

In future seasons, to stimulate promotion, consideration would be given to clubs that finish in 1st, 2nd or 3rd positions in Step 5 competitions provided that they meet the entry criteria for Step 4. There would, however, be only one club promoted from any Step 5 competition in any season. In addition, it was agreed that at the conclusion of Season 2012/2013 the clubs finishing in bottom position in each of the Step 4 divisions would be relegated.

 

It was further agreed that discussions should take place with all leagues to look at the possibility that, regardless of any vacancies occurring, the club finishing in the bottom positions in divisions at Steps 1 to 5 of the National League System will be relegated.

 

That there remained issues to be addressed at Step 6, not least in the Essex area, and these will be progressed in the coming months.

 

Review Group wished to place on record their thanks to all those leagues, clubs, County Football Associations and others that had contributed in any way to the consultation process."

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

the wessex league in recent years have promoted teams that have finished even lower than 2nd am sure once they did promote a team that finished 5th /6th into the premier division. I am not sure i agree with promoting teams that finish 5th or 6th but agree with ace that a 2nd /3rd place team should be given a chance after having a good season they deserve the chance.

 

on forest ace why do you only have 6 players at the club , and were you happy to see cotteril go?

 

I think that providing that none of the other teams above them want to take promotion, or that none of the teams above them have the appropriate ground grading then it's fine to promote the team that finishes 5th/6th assuming they want promotion and have the appropriate ground grading.

 

I do know of one side that has twice been promoted without finishing 1st (they were 9th and 3rd in different years, yet still got promoted because their ground was the only one in the top 10 with appropriate ground grading).

[Green_Fingers]

the wessex league in recent years have promoted teams that have finished even lower than 2nd am sure once they did promote a team that finished 5th /6th into the premier division. I am not sure i agree with promoting teams that finish 5th or 6th but agree with ace that a 2nd /3rd place team should be given a chance after having a good season they deserve the chance.

 

on forest ace why do you only have 6 players at the club , and were you happy to see cotteril go?

 

I think that providing that none of the other teams above them want to take promotion, or that none of the teams above them have the appropriate ground grading then it's fine to promote the team that finishes 5th/6th assuming they want promotion and have the appropriate ground grading.

 

I do know of one side that has twice been promoted without finishing 1st (they were 9th and 3rd in different years, yet still got promoted because their ground was the only one in the top 10 with appropriate ground grading).

 

Couldn't happen nowadays Adam - Standard FA rules state Champions only, or 2nd placed if the Champions can't make it / don't want it. From next season that changes to include 3rd placed Clubs if Champions & 2nd placed can't make it / don't want it

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

Well the years in question were 1991 and 2005, and I was surprised that they were allowed promotion after finishing outside the top two.

 

That said, there have been teams elevated from Step 8 straight to Step 6 before - I'm sure I read that on Non League Matters some time ago.

[bomaya]

As usual getting clarity from the FA is impossible. No Premier club should bank on anything other than a first place finish being good enough. It IS possible they could promote more than one and of course ground grading could cause some teams to fail even if they are first opening the way for others...but the only certainty is finish FIRST and have the correct ground grading before the deadline.

[Ace1]

the wessex league in recent years have promoted teams that have finished even lower than 2nd am sure once they did promote a team that finished 5th /6th into the premier division. I am not sure i agree with promoting teams that finish 5th or 6th but agree with ace that a 2nd /3rd place team should be given a chance after having a good season they deserve the chance.

 

on forest ace why do you only have 6 players at the club , and were you happy to see cotteril go?

 

Only five players now that Gunter has gone to Reading! Too many players out of contract and no money to give them new ones! McCarthey has now ruled himself out of the managers job as well!!! Cotterill was embarrassing!

[lazarus]

It is my understanding that, at the end of season 12-13, there will be additional places available for promotion to Step 4, given the expansion of the three Step 3 leagues. The FA have not yet said exactly how it will work.

 

After next season though, promotion from the Premier Division will again be limited to just one place, although clubs finishing second and third will be considered if the top club cannot or does not want to go up. The only change is bringing in the 2rd placed club as a possibility for promotion. There does seem to be a guarantee that the bottom club in each of the three regional divisions at Step 4 will be relegated irrespective of all else.

 

My best assumption (and that's all it can be) would be that possibly two clubs may go up from our Premier Division at the end of the season, probably with no-one to be relegated into the CCL, unless any of the bottom clubs at Step 4 are within our catchment area, and even that is not guaranteed as we have seen this season. In turn that will have an effect (likely reduction) upon the number of clubs to be relegated from the Premier Division at the end of the season. Three clubs will still be eligible to be promoted from Division One but there is no longer any certainty that they will be promoted into our Premier Division as they will be allocated to whatever league the FA (or the appropriate commitee) thinks is the right one.

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

the wessex league in recent years have promoted teams that have finished even lower than 2nd am sure once they did promote a team that finished 5th /6th into the premier division. I am not sure i agree with promoting teams that finish 5th or 6th but agree with ace that a 2nd /3rd place team should be given a chance after having a good season they deserve the chance.

 

on forest ace why do you only have 6 players at the club , and were you happy to see cotteril go?

 

Only five players now that Gunter has gone to Reading! Too many players out of contract and no money to give them new ones! McCarthey has now ruled himself out of the managers job as well!!! Cotterill was embarrassing!

 

It does seem strange that managers are dropping out of the running after the takeover. If anything, managers should want to go to a club with money and ambition.

 

Something about the takeover at Nottingham Forest does not seem right,,, are we going to have a Blackburn Rovers 2 at The City Ground?

 

Edit: Worryingly, one of the people in the takeover looks like Scam err Sam Hammam!

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

It is my understanding that, at the end of season 12-13, there will be additional places available for promotion to Step 4, given the expansion of the three Step 3 leagues. The FA have not yet said exactly how it will work.

 

After next season though, promotion from the Premier Division will again be limited to just one place, although clubs finishing second and third will be considered if the top club cannot or does not want to go up. The only change is bringing in the 2rd placed club as a possibility for promotion. There does seem to be a guarantee that the bottom club in each of the three regional divisions at Step 4 will be relegated irrespective of all else.

 

My best assumption (and that's all it can be) would be that possibly two clubs may go up from our Premier Division at the end of the season, probably with no-one to be relegated into the CCL, unless any of the bottom clubs at Step 4 are within our catchment area, and even that is not guaranteed as we have seen this season. In turn that will have an effect (likely reduction) upon the number of clubs to be relegated from the Premier Division at the end of the season. Three clubs will still be eligible to be promoted from Division One but there is no longer any certainty that they will be promoted into our Premier Division as they will be allocated to whatever league the FA (or the appropriate commitee) thinks is the right one.

 

May I ask what is going to happen with regards relegation from Step 6/Promotion from Step 7?

[bomaya]

It is my understanding that, at the end of season 12-13, there will be additional places available for promotion to Step 4, given the expansion of the three Step 3 leagues. The FA have not yet said exactly how it will work.

 

After next season though, promotion from the Premier Division will again be limited to just one place, although clubs finishing second and third will be considered if the top club cannot or does not want to go up. The only change is bringing in the 2rd placed club as a possibility for promotion. There does seem to be a guarantee that the bottom club in each of the three regional divisions at Step 4 will be relegated irrespective of all else.

 

My best assumption (and that's all it can be) would be that possibly two clubs may go up from our Premier Division at the end of the season, probably with no-one to be relegated into the CCL, unless any of the bottom clubs at Step 4 are within our catchment area, and even that is not guaranteed as we have seen this season. In turn that will have an effect (likely reduction) upon the number of clubs to be relegated from the Premier Division at the end of the season. Three clubs will still be eligible to be promoted from Division One but there is no longer any certainty that they will be promoted into our Premier Division as they will be allocated to whatever league the FA (or the appropriate commitee) thinks is the right one.

 

May I ask what is going to happen with regards relegation from Step 6/Promotion from Step 7?

 

Think Alan answered that Adam (as best as he can at this stage).

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

Thanks Bomaya, I knew that there was definitely relegation from Step 6 to 7 this season (for all leagues) but as the Combined Counties (on Wikipedia anyway) has four feeder leagues I was wondering how many teams would a) go down and come up, assuming they have the necessary ground grading.

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

Why the heck do I keep getting a smiley in sunglasses when I type....?

[bomaya]

Put a gap between your b and your ).

 

PS. Any chance of a smaller list of fav players etc? Your posts take up half a page with all that!

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

No worries, I'll edit my list now.