This season budgets

[NICE GUY]

Money is the root of all evil.

 

"the love of money is the root of all evil"

 

Yeah hoe true Bommie, you ask my ex-missus.......LOL !!!

[JamieSE]

[bomaya]

A further point on this to those that say it's no one's business but the club directors...

 

The only time people including the fans are interested in the money side is either when a) one club is attracting better players/managers etc than their peer clubs or b ) when there has previously been some financial irregularity. Sometimes both these things can happen.

 

A few seasons ago my club were in a league where one club were head and shoulders above the rest. They came to our place and tonked us 0-5 in the best display I'd seen at that level. There were lots of rumours at the time about the money being played to the manager and his players and where on earth can this money be coming from. Of course this was all dismissed and laughed at especially by fans of the club who accused others of jealousy. They went on to the win the league comfortably.

 

You might have heard of Croydon Athletic and the scandal that arose when it was discovered that cricket betting fraud money was being laundered through the accounts. The fans lost their club.

 

And in addition to just the fans of that club, clearly other teams were affected including one that would have got promotion that year if CA hadn't been flashing the cash.

 

Windsor fall into the category of previous financial irregularity. I don't care that they are a 'new club' when they have the same ground, the same manager, many of the same players etc etc. People ARE going to be interested in the budget for all the reasons stated above because they are not stupid. Windsor fans should care and everyone else should care.

 

PS. I have no particular dislike of Windsor, just get annoyed when talk of budgets is considered no one else's business when it clearly can be!

[Lee Farmie]

The same season Croydon Athletic went up Folkestone Invicta went up despite entering into a CVA and having 10 point deducted - all due to unpaid and unpayable debts. There's no getting away from the fact that certain clubs have benefited from the system, bouncing back up league while creditors have lost everything. At the same time other clubs who have cut their cloth according to their means have suffered. All clubs should bear scrutiny of their finances and the "none of your business" line doesn't wash with me either.

[NICE GUY]

If you've managed and been around the football circles for some time, and JJ is probably be learning all this (no disrespect JJ, your 1st job) you get to know what players earn or asking for, so one has look at players at clubs to think how can they justify playing these type of players wage.

 

Now before you jump down my throat as you do, I'm not saying that about ALL players. Yes I am sure that players maybe playing to help the manager out for a smaller fee, and that the players do over exaggerate their wage packet, but in general you get to know what players you can get to play in the CCL for a very average wage, like Chennels for instance, who played for Windsor for nothing last season 'cos he wanted to return to his beloved Windsor.......yep !

[Krooner]

As far as I am aware all clubs have to provide Auditted accounts to their Parent Association. Perhaps along with that they should have to give a detailed list of creditors and when they intend to settle them.

[Lee Farmie]

It is now a Ryman League requirement for Clubs to divulge to them any significant long term HMRC debt. Not that any will.

[danielpjn]

I believe Hampshire FA only require a balance sheet, with no supporting documents.

 

I think the FA need to look at the process of new clubs forming on the back of previous clubs. I have nothing against Windsor, but I'm not sure why a new club with no links to Windsor & Eton FC starts at step 5. Our club has had to win promotion 5 times to get to step 6. Whereas the FA seem to be suggesting that if you secure a decent ground, you can enter the pyramid at this step without having win the right to.

 

As I said, nothing against Windsor, just an example (of which there are many) of a gripe I have.

[chairman_afcca]

As far as I am aware all clubs have to provide Auditted accounts to their Parent Association. Perhaps along with that they should have to give a detailed list of creditors and when they intend to settle them.

 

I have not previously entered this sort of debate or other forums etc but it is something which I have naturally developed both an interest in and some degree of expertise given the circumstances. The simple of answer is yes, clubs must provide audited accounts to the FA (if a member as Croydon Athletic FC was) and/or their parent association. Football Clubs at certain levels are also submit to review by the FA's governance department or whatever it is called. The issue then is, what do those authorities do if a Football Club doesn't comply; these things take time to progress through the system and the charges the FA ultimately laid at the door of Croydon Athletic FC were 18 months after the event.

 

Question therefore, should football authorities have greater power? Well, given the views sometimes expressed on forums about the things the FA does or doesn't do would suggest not! If not the FA then who?

 

Bomaya says in his post "...where on earth can this money be coming from. Of course this was all dismissed and laughed at especially by fans of the club who accused others of jealousy." I am not sure I agree totally with this statement. I don't think anyone denied where the money was coming from; it was coming out of the pocket of the owner. Indeed, the Club's accounts made that clear and that is why the last company accounts list debts for Croydon Athletic Sports and Social Club Limited of nearly £400k. This is only a problem for a company if those to whom they owe money wants the cash back and in this case the debts were owed to the owner themselves.

 

The question is, what should the fans of CAFC have done? Once a football club, like any business, becomes owned by someone then that person is free to sell that company to someone else. Football's Fit and Proper Person Test only goes as far as stopping someone who has previous convictions etc from owning or running a club, it does not stop someone who has not been caught! Fans have very little say in their football club but it doesn't cease to become their football club because someone owns it.

 

Interestingly, having recently been reading Simon Jordan's autobiography he briefly refers to having a meeting with a potential buyer of CPFC before they went into administration; the potential buyer who according to Jordan gave proof of £15m assetts, was one Mazhar Majeed!

 

Bomaya also says "money was being laundered through the accounts" - this is not true; there was no money being laundered through CAFC and any understanding of money laundering makes that perfectly obvious despite what Majeed is supposed to of said. The object of money laundering is to be able to take money out of a company and give it a legitimate provenence to avoid questions being asked. Had CAFC started to make money and post significant profits then there would have been something worth investigating; CAFC was losing money and therefore gave no legitimacy to the dosh itself. Where Majeed's money that he loaned the Club came from is another matter but that is not the same as money laundering and frankly isn't a question any of us can ask any more than we can asked someone buying a season ticket to declare where their money came from before we bank it. (My knowledge of money laundering is intellectual rather than professional!)!!!

 

On to the substantive point of the thread. We should all have a desire to ensure that all clubs in our league operate honestly and the authorities must have systems in place to ensure so. However, it isn't our business exactly what another club is spending on players or anything else; that is a private matter for the Club so far as they operate within the rules. Farmie has made the point that the "none of your business line doesn't wash with me either" but has not volunteered what Whyteleafe FC's budget will be next season? And neither would I expect him to as that is a matter for the Club and whoever is funding it (providing they comply with authorities).

 

AFC Croydon Athletic is a new Club, owned by supporters; it is a company limited by guarantee and not by shares. As a Club it carries no debt other than a debt of gratitude to those, including many supporters of other clubs, who have been generous with their advice, good wishes and support that have enabled us to form a new club and compete next season.

 

As for what budget the Club is working to next season; that is a matter for the Club!

[Lee Farmie]

Indeed. I was waiting for someone to ask me what Whyteleafe's budget is next season and I would not have told them. But I wouldn't get cross and tell to not to speculate - gossip and hearsay is the very backbone of forum culture, he said pretentiously.

 

What I would say is that Whyteleafe were relegated to a lower level due to financial caution and AFC Croydon Athletic find themselves just one step down despite a quite catastrophic lack of it. However, I accept that the connection between Croydon Athletic and AFC Croydon Athletic is little than a name and a kit colour before uppityness ensues.

[Mark-Tommo]

Having secured sponsorship by www.iwish.co.uk, Bagshot's budget is £500 a week for Intermediate League.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Mark-Tommo

[Krooner]

Having secured sponsorship by www.iwish.co.uk, Bagshot's budget is £500 a week for Intermediate League.

 

And one of your players told me you were spending it all on him.

[The Mayor Of Simpleton]

The problem is that whilst you have crooks/crooked people at clubs, regardless of their league, problems will happen.

 

Remember the debacle at Notts County a few years ago? Their 'owners' allegedly passed the 'Fit & Proper Persons' test, and it was only a few months later when Sven Goran Eriksson left them that it all started to unravel.

 

Sadly, I don't see what can be done to stop it at the moment.

 

I like the point made by Chairman AFC CA - how do you know where the money has come from? How many clubs in non league know where every penny comes from?

 

The simple answer is nobody can be 100% sure, so you have to trust the word of those giving the money (for what it's worth - no pun intended). How would you know, for example, that a club isn't being financed through the profits of drugs and child porn. A horrible thought, yes, but you never know who or what is financing a club.

[Mark-Tommo]

Having secured sponsorship by www.iwish.co.uk, Bagshot's budget is £500 a week for Intermediate League.

 

And one of your players told me you were spending it all on him.

 

Haha...one of the new lads has requested £495 a week from the budget. The other £5 will just have to be split between the rest.

[jertzee]

Money is the root of all evil.

 

"the love of money is the root of all evil"

 

No, I meant what I said

[VPCTFC]

I think the FA need to look at the process of new clubs forming on the back of previous clubs. I have nothing against Windsor, but I'm not sure why a new club with no links to Windsor & Eton FC starts at step 5. Our club has had to win promotion 5 times to get to step 6. Whereas the FA seem to be suggesting that if you secure a decent ground, you can enter the pyramid at this step without having win the right to.

 

As I said, nothing against Windsor, just an example (of which there are many) of a gripe I have.

 

They started at step 5 because the FA deemed them a 'reformed' club rather than a completely new club. It's got nothing to do with ground grading.

New clubs can only join the National League System at step 7 (Surrey Elite level although that league still isn't officially step 7) unless there are vacancies at a higher level, which there are in CCL1. Guernsey and Croydon Municipal are the two most recent examples of completely new clubs applying to join the system in our area. In the past there were teams like AFC Wimbledon and Aldershot Town starting afresh at the bottom of the pyramid. None of this drop down two levels nonsense that was in force until this year.

Windsor and all the others may be a new legal entity but that doesn't mean much. Camberley Town FC became a new legal entity when it became a limited company in 1996. It's still the same club though.

I'm not knocking Windsor. They should have started at step 6 if they were a proper new club but that was last year. They're now at the level they would be at anyway assuming they would've got promotion from CCL1 (or the Hellenic League if they'd applied to join that) and I wish them well. Besides, I've put a bet on them winning the league this season!

 

Regarding your sentence "I think the FA need to look at the process of new clubs forming on the back of previous clubs."

They have. Darlington are the first club to be subject to the new wording of the rule. They got a four level drop rather than the two level drop they would have got under last year's rules. The new rules say -

 

"If a Club (whether a Members’ Club or a Company) is wound up, liquidated, ceases to trade or is removed from its League or withdraws from football competition (‘the Former Club’), and then wishes to establish a new Club (‘the New Club’) and be placed within the NLS other than as set out in Regulation 5.3, then unless otherwise determined by the LC, it will be allowed to make an application only to join a League/division at Step 5 of the NLS unless the Former Club was in either Step 4 or Step 5 when the event which caused it to cease its membership occurred in which case it must re-join the NLS at a minimum of two Steps below the level at which it was at the time the event occurred, or withdrew from football competition, whichever is lower. Where the Former Club as a member of The FA Premier League or Football League in the current Playing Season then the LC shall at its absolute discretion determine in which league within the NLS the New Club shall be placed for the following Playing Season and will set out at its complete discretion the requirements to be met by the New Club."

 

Windsor would still have been treated the same as Windsor & Eton were step 3 when they went down the pan, AFC Croydon Athletic have been placed at step 6 by the FA as Croydon Athletic were at step 4.

Strange thing is, AFC Croydon Athletic could have applied to join the CCL1 as a new club, in fact I think they did, which would have been subject to a vote by the members but it appears the FA have decided they're not a new club and placed them in the league. I expect AFCCA would have been voted in anyway as the CCL seems a very accomodating league but their case is a strange one.

Edited June 13, 2012 by VPCTFC

[The Dishwasher]

There appears to be a good sized budget at Knaphill, Frimley Green and Eversley in Div 1 this season....all looking for promotion I assume. Who can blame them as it seemed to work for the 'big budget boys' who won promotion last year!!

yes the bodget of £o at Bedfont Sports served us well.

[The Dishwasher]

There appears to be a good sized budget at Knaphill, Frimley Green and Eversley in Div 1 this season....all looking for promotion I assume. Who can blame them as it seemed to work for the 'big budget boys' who won promotion last year!!

yes the budget of £o at Bedfont Sports served us well.

[bomaya]

Hi Mr Chairman, think I know you, were you at several Merstham home games toward the end of last season?

 

Bomaya says in his post "...where on earth can this money be coming from. Of course this was all dismissed and laughed at especially by fans of the club who accused others of jealousy." I am not sure I agree totally with this statement. I don't think anyone denied where the money was coming from; it was coming out of the pocket of the owner.

 

Well I guess it's just anecdotal so not worth debating but I remember people denying that anything more than the usual was being paid.

 

 

Bomaya also says "money was being laundered through the accounts" - this is not true; there was no money being laundered through CAFC and any understanding of money laundering makes that perfectly obvious despite what Majeed is supposed to of said. The object of money laundering is to be able to take money out of a company and give it a legitimate provenence to avoid questions being asked. Had CAFC started to make money and post significant profits then there would have been something worth investigating; CAFC was losing money and therefore gave no legitimacy to the dosh itself. Where Majeed's money that he loaned the Club came from is another matter but that is not the same as money laundering and frankly isn't a question any of us can ask any more than we can asked someone buying a season ticket to declare where their money came from before we bank it. (My knowledge of money laundering is intellectual rather than professional!)!!!

 

Well I probably should declare that I DO have professional knowledge on money laundering and have to be aware of current legislation for my job. Simply putting illegally gained funds in and around CA was a stage of money laundering (known as Placement). Whether that full amount is taken back out or a profit is made is irrelevant.

 

Farmie has made the point that the "none of your business line doesn't wash with me either" but has not volunteered what Whyteleafe FC's budget will be next season?

 

Don't think anyone would be that interested. When was the last time Whyteleafe went bust or had players playing way below the level? (Not counting Ian Selley )

 

Money is the root of all evil.

 

"the love of money is the root of all evil"

 

No, I meant what I said

 

As did I.

[chairman_afcca]

Hi Mr Chairman, think I know you, were you at several Merstham home games toward the end of last season?

 

I very much enjoy visiting Merstham which is a nice club and full of nice people. I suspect I shall visit a few times next season too!

 

Well I guess it's just anecdotal so not worth debating but I remember people denying that anything more than the usual was being paid.

 

That is a slightly different comment to the one before. No one knew what was being paid but it was obvious that it was more than was being generated by the commercial activity of the club and was being supplemented by the owner. Was the Club paying significantly more than everyone else in the Division? My guess would be that it was among the top payers but not necessarily the top and I have now had the benefit of seeing all the figures. Academic now really but I think supporters will often defend their team from perceived attack. By the way, I do remember the game you refer to but I think you'll find it was 1-5 rather than 0-5 (but it was one of that team's best performances that season) - Craig Vernon scored your goal.

 

Well I probably should declare that I DO have professional knowledge on money laundering and have to be aware of current legislation for my job. Simply putting illegally gained funds in and around CA was a stage of money laundering (known as Placement). Whether that full amount is taken back out or a profit is made is irrelevant.

 

You are right that there are various stages of money laundering but the purpose of the process is to hide the true origin. This was not done in relation to CAFC as money that was paid in to the Club was from the owner and not hidden. According to Croydon Guardian the owner is back in court next month on six charges of 'cheating the public purse' [tax evasion] but I doubt CAFC will come up in that trial.

 

Anyway, your last two managers (Williams/Martin) are taking the reigns at AFC Croydon Athletic and we are very much looking forward to it. Hopefully we'll see you at the Croydon Sports Arena some time to see how they are getting on; make yourself known, you will be most welcome.

Edited June 13, 2012 by chairman_afcca