Same Old Managers/Players in the ESL Debate

[Sorry]

I have read this thread with a lot of interest and do agree with comments made by people who are on both sides. Now I'm sure most of you know already but I am the manager of Burnham Ramblers and at the age of 33 I would say that I am not part of the so called merry go round managers brigade. I was lucky enough to be given the chance by Burnham to be manager as it was always something I wanted to do when I packed up. The fact it came earlier than I imagined I saw as a bonus.

 

What I would say is that when I was a player I used to take an interest in the running of the clubs I played for, East Thurrock, Wakering & Tilbury to name a few, but that was as far as it went really. Now I am on the otherside of the fence so to speak I get to see what it takes to run a club at this level as Basil-don has mentioned. I used to throw my kit on the floor after the game and leave the dressing room without thinking about who cleaned them up, have my food, a couple of beers, take home the remainder of my wages and that was it till the next game. Now I have to pick the kit up, sweep the dressing rooms, go without food at away games the majority of the time as the players have scoffed it all. Still have a few beers though win or lose !!! All this is done to help each other and I am lucky that I have a few people help me with these jobs and yes sometime I leave it to them if I need to speak to players after etc but it is all done to help Shaun, who we all know does a lot at the club, and one another.

So from my perspective and I don't want to turn this into a 'how wonderful we are as a club compared to others' but we are lucky to have a group of volunteers to do this.

 

For me the problem about same old faces is that these players are the committed ones who are willing to give up their time from early July to the following May,3 times a week and clubs need to have that stability and knowledge that the will get a team out week in week out. I'm not saying that is right but I imagine it has a part to play with some clubs. I'm sure there are players of better ability in the EOFL but they don't for whatever reason want to 'step-up' or to the ESL.

 

For us this year we have introduced a number of players from our successful Under 17's side and those that have seen us play will know that if they develop and learn then they could play a lot higher but it is not always possible for clubs to call upon these resources.

 

As for people coming through the gates to watch I don't think the ESL helps itself, what advertising does the league do, how badly run is the website, I know each club should do their own and we have tried but you can't make people turn up. I also go on something that our small band of supporters have said to me and something as an olderr head remember. Nowadays you go in the bar at most clubs and all the players have left straight away or only drink Lucozade, they don't mingle with supporters and I'm sure people pay their money and would like to get to speak to the odd player now and again. I'm not saying all players have to drink 6 pints each game but when I played you used to speak to supporters and have a bit of banter with them, for me this has gone from football now. Would that come back with earlier kick offs I'm not sure.

[Hookey]

Problem is Hookey when that happens the fines are directed towards club not the individuals involved, always the club who ends up paying mate.

 

I know mate, what I meant was I hope you pursued them for repayment of the fines that you had to pay for them..

[Basil-Don]

right off to ground for Under 16s match,its not all 'doom and gloom' in ESL and on the whole had some really good boys in the first team this season,players like Aaron Hunwicks,Mike Edgar,Kyle Paevie,Mason Durrell,Jamie Pooley and a few others have been a credit to the club both on and off the pitch our disciplinary record has been good bar 3/4 matches.

[syd_lexic]

Piper, Basil makes alot of good points re: Managers sniffing around jobs & to be honest i can also understand his apathy with regards to a clubs success. If people in these one man clubs upped sticks & walked away, most clubs wouldn't last 5 minutes. Rather than being an enjoyable hobby, ot becomes a chore & is easy to get ground down by all the duties.

Although i still take a keen interest in non-league football, I've been out of the game 16 months now & I can quite honestly say I don't miss it. Managing & coaching nowadays at this level is a tough ask. When theres no budget, you get the leftovers & although they will nearly all be talented players, the reason they are is because they can be unreliable. When i started playing senior football 25 years ago as a 16 year old, my week revolved around training & matches. If i had to work on a Saturday, my hours would differ depending on whether it was home or away. Nowadays their priorities are different. If they're at college or Uni, they need to work at weekends to pay for their nights out, rather than play football. If they drive why would they want to spend £20 on petrol driving from Sawbo to Southend Manor for a game of football. It's not nice, but unfortunately that's how it is now.

If i could manage a club & just concentrate on football it would be a pleasure & I would consider it again, but i can't see the situation improving at all.

 

[Hookey]

Basildon will never be treated seriously while they have directors in charge who have no interest in the club other then the size of the bar takings and possible money to be made by a compulsery purchase of the ground.

 

what bar takings? there is no compulsory purchase order on the ground apart from that a excellent point well made

 

What is the score there, what is stopping the sale or development of the ground, apart from the obvious, i.e. funds?

[Basil-Don]

Sorry the problem with players in the bar is that most of them have no money,10 years back when you were their age you probably had a lot more available cash than the boys have now,every year the teams become younger and poorer.im afraid clubs including my own have to accept this as a fact of life now.

[Basil-Don]

Piper, Basil makes alot of good points re: Managers sniffing around jobs & to be honest i can also understand his apathy with regards to a clubs success. If people in these one man clubs upped sticks & walked away, most clubs wouldn't last 5 minutes. Rather than being an enjoyable hobby, ot becomes a chore & is easy to get ground down by all the duties.

Although i still take a keen interest in non-league football, I've been out of the game 16 months now & I can quite honestly say I don't miss it. Managing & coaching nowadays at this level is a tough ask. When theres no budget, you get the leftovers & although they will nearly all be talented players, the reason they are is because they can be unreliable. When i started playing senior football 25 years ago as a 16 year old, my week revolved around training & matches. If i had to work on a Saturday, my hours would differ depending on whether it was home or away. Nowadays their priorities are different. If they're at college or Uni, they need to work at weekends to pay for their nights out, rather than play football. If they drive why would they want to spend £20 on petrol driving from Sawbo to Southend Manor for a game of football. It's not nice, but unfortunately that's how it is now.

If i could manage a club & just concentrate on football it would be a pleasure & I would consider it again, but i can't see the situation improving at all.

 

good for you Syd that you have the will power to resist getting back involved in a business which you know will cost you time,money and stress, as you know many managers just cant help themselves and return for more and more of the same.

[Jenko]

Basildon just to clear one thing up when I was at Eton Manor myself, Kirk, Chester, Neil, Larry and Paul ran that club and done absolutely everything including paying out a fortune on stuff. With all due respect Reg, because you happen to mention all the 'stuff' he does, done very little. I certainly got my hands dirty like sweeping the pitch to get the water off and get a game on. I am not adverse to getting my hands dirty and doing off the field stuff. I am not a person who likes a tracksuit with my initials on and boasts I am at a senior club and to be honest I find your comments offensive. You may like to be a general dogsbody but thats for you to decide and deal with.

 

I'm sorry but a manager's/coaches job should be to concentrate on the football. Maybe you have been invovled with Basildon too long Richard but there are well run clubs out there where it isn't left to 2/3 people to do absolutely everything. Having played and coached at various clubs and leagues it has dawned on me that maybe it is just the ESL that allows and expects the football mangement to do absolutely everything on and off the field. At a well run club there should be different people to deal with the football, the secreterial duties, the pitch, the bar, the kit etc. That is how a club should be run. Maybe this is why the ESL is so looked down on and why the same managers and players are always popping up at different clubs.

 

I was at one club where there were 4 people on the football management, a kit man, a secreatary, chairman and committee who dealt with everything else. That was a well run club. How can you expect to concentrate on being successful on the pitch when you have to worry about the kit being washed, transport being organised for away games, marking out the pitch etc.

 

I'm sorry Richard but your opinion on how a club should be run is not only unrealistic but maybe why the ESL has seemed to become a bit of a joke.

[Jenko]

If what Basil-don is saying is right (which i dont doubt) then I think we have found a real reason for the decline of things. There cant be many managers of real ability who would be willing to do all the grass cutting ground cleaning, painting Ect......Going by what Basil-don has wrote on here it would sem that anyone who went for a job at Bas Utd was told of these requirements and its possible that a few people who would have improved the football at the club didnt take the job, therefore the football didnt improve, the interest didnt improve, the amount of paying fans didnt improve and now they are where they are. Im not in any way saying that Bas Utd made the wrong choices or that the way they run things is wrong but you can understand how hard it would be to find a manager who was of a decent standard and take a job on that basis. I would say that Basil-don is unfairly basing his account of a manager on what he and his club expect from one rather than what a manager should expect. It would seem that if someone comes in and trains the team twice a week and then picks a team, picks the formation, chooses the style of play and basically runs the football "team" then Basil-don puts him in the brackett of tracksuit wearing wannabe. In Basil-don's opinion it would seem that a manager should expect all the other side of things too. In my opinion let a football manager, manage. If Basil-don is right and thats the way most ESL clubs employ managers then i think we can expect many more problems...........Brain surgeons dont empty the p*ss bottles, Top London Bankers dont work on the tills, Council leaders dont sweep the streets and for me Good senior standard Football managers dont wash the kit, cut the grass, paint the stand, clean the changing rooms, maybe they do a liitle of each now and then but not as part of the job requirements. "JUST MY OPINION"

 

Totally and utterly bang on Piper! My point exactly!

[Jenko]

Hookey- we have two very successful youth teams at Basildon United the parents do jack sh1t and its the same throughout non league football,99 per cent of the work is done by one person at most clubs whether it be lee stevens at bowers or shaun pugh at burnham,isnt it funny how you can always find people to work the turnstiles but no one wants to sweep up the changing rooms,never no shortage of volunteers for jobs where the handling of money is involved.

Piper-obviously if arsene wenger applied for the Bees job he would be turned down as totally unsuitable,what a manager does on the pitch is only 50 per cent of the job, sorry i cant believe that this comes as a shock to many people.

 

In senior football clubs give a manager a chance-they can make their name then go on like rod stringer to greater things,now if im stacking shelves in poundland and i moan about my wages the supervisior will no doubt tell me to 'fck off as theres 300 poles who want my job' and the fact is no matter how hard a ESL Managers job may be theres 30 people who will jump in to their shoes.thats football,thats life,the fact is no one ever press gangs a manager into taking such a job, managers are treated badly no doubt but until they form a union where they agree not to nick each other jobs nothing will change.

 

Two things the mangers job shouldn't be 50% on the pitch!!!! That is the problem. Secondly Rod was at clubs with a decent set up.

[Jenko]

Basil-don, obviously "The match " is a small part of a managers job especially at low levels but i wonder how many teams managers have been employed or sacked based on how much of the non-football related things they do or dont do. Once again for those who missed it the first time, in my opinion if managers were emplyed to soley do the stuff that effects the result then the football should improve, then the interest will improve, then the fan base would improve and then the number of volunteers would improve. This is just opinion. I can assure you of one thing though I am quite familular with mr Stringer and his time at Barking and although his work for what goes happens on the pitch was incredible and beyond doubt i'm quite sure he didnt worry about who washed the kits Ect.......All these threads are about either why ESL in in the dulldrums or why managers with poor track record move from club to club. I think we have answered the question. ESL clubs employ managers based on what they offer behind the scenes as much if not more then their abilities to coach quality football. This has led to poorer players, poorer games, poorer crowds and so on and so on. In my opinion "Get the football right and slowly everything else will improve". I dont have all the ideas on how to sort the other jobs while the manager gets on with the football but thats the real solution.

 

Totally right again.

[Talk_Is_Cheap]

I Agree with Piper and Jenko.

 

The ESL hangs on to its senior name, purely due to ground gradings, when in reality, most set ups are either similar or worse than that of a lower stadard.

 

I know there is always an argument that if clubs at a lower level are so well run, then they should step up, but look at the shambles that is Clapton.

 

The pitch is worse than most public parks, the changing rooms are basically derelict, the bar is falling apart, the area is shocking, the team are terrible and other than make up the numbers and provide a diffcicult horrible away day what else do their offer.

 

You could replace them with a 100 other teams that would provide a better standard of football, and a better experience but they are 'not allowed' because they don't have floodlights and a fence..!!

 

I'm all for ground criteria and the Ryman league has something to protect and standards to maintain, but what are the ESL maintaining....Clapton?

 

It will get worse as well, because Whitam are going up, no one will come down, thats one less 'decent club' and next year Burnham could well go up and what you left with..!!

[syd_lexic]

In theory Piper is right but it just doesn't happen like that now. Terry Spillane got it right on the pitch at Stansted, they were successful & played good football, but the club nearly went tits up on summer because there's little or no interest from local business or people.

[Stop Whinging]

You are all agreeing with the points I made in an earlier part of the thread. The ESL has too many side who are no longer step 5 clubs off the field (some on it as well) . Clearly they need to be replaced or a revamp of the leagues needs to take place otherwise the ESL will never prosper again.

[Sorry]

I think we are all missing the point - when the FA rejig the Pyramid from Step 5 down the ESL will benefit from the introduction of teams such as FC Clacton, Stanway, Wivenhoe etc and with a Step 6 league also in place this will enable promotion & relegation and will allow the teams with the better facilities and correct ground gradings prosper.

 

These things don't happen overnight and potentially we will have to suffer going to Clapton and they will have to suffer travelling all the way to Burnham on a Tuesday night for another season but surely the introduction of bnew teams and a bigger league of say 22 teams will benefit everyone. And that is without the prospect of promotion & relegation.

 

I'm not backing the FA but I do think they realise that there is serious issues with Step 5 down and unfortunatley we are at the bottom of the food chain and get dealt with last. F all we can do about that is there ???

 

Finally I'd like to hope that TIC's comments are true and Burnham leave the ESL next season

[Hookey]

Reading Trenks' comments in last night's Echo, he seems resigned to being relegated to the ESL at the end of the season, unless they (Great Wakering Rovers) also get reprieved, ala Ilford and Harlow in recent seasons.

 

.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Hookey

[Rhodes]

Hookey - Yes, I read that, an interesting article:

 

http://www.echo-news.co.uk/sport/9642477.Trenks_gobsmacked_at_Rovers____bad_luck/

 

[Basil-Don]

In theory Piper is right but it just doesn't happen like that now. Terry Spillane got it right on the pitch at Stansted, they were successful & played good football, but the club nearly went tits up on summer because there's little or no interest from local business or people.

 

absolutely spot on, Basildon could be top of ESL and still getting the same crowds,have Southend Manor's crowds improved the last two seasons? puts to bed the argument that if the football side was successful the whole club would be.doesnt work that way as Syd says look at Stansted.

[Eastside Urchin]

You can draw a diagonal line from Colchester using the A12 as a guide and 95% of clubs are under this line with just stansted & takeley out of this line,and these two clubs are virtually on each others doorstep (as well as ex sawbo)

For me the Esl should represent Essex,not just south and west Essex,it's too cluttered with too many teams close to each other.

 

Towns with decent populations or other clubs that should be represented are as follows

 

Clacton

Stanway

Coggleshall

Halstead

Dunmow

Saffron walden

Harwich

Wickford

Rayleigh

Ongar

Wivenhoe

 

Just a few

 

[syd_lexic]

Coggeshall's not a town though & probably would fail under the same reasons as other clubs. Brightlingsea could slso be included as they were an ESL in the 'old days'.

As much as the ESL can be classed as a poor league now, it's been a victim of it's own success as well. Brentwood, Canvey, Concord, East Thurrock, Enfield Town, Ford United/Redbridge, Great Wakering, Heybridge Swifts, Hornchurch, Ilford, Leyton, Maldon, Romford, Tilbury & Waltham Abbey have all left the ESL to play higher up the pyramid in the last 25 years. If you had just half of those clubs in the ESL now that would make a decent league.

on a similar note, i know many people who have moaned about the lack of quality in the Ryman League. There are certainly players I've seen who wouldn't have been of ESL standard in past seasons & maybe that is the problem. We have a Ryman Prem & Div.1 North & South. Why not merge North & South & the bottom half of both leagues go back into their respective Step 5 league ?