Silly Rules

[Gluck_ab]

Regarding the goal kick, i've no idea why that changed from one side indicated by the referee to any side chosen by the GK. It might though be related to the fact that a freekick awarded to a defending team in the goal area (6 yard box) may be taken anywhere in that area. I presume the logic is that whilst they are different matters, the practicalities of them are the same.

[Smudge]

So Gluck,no change needed then in your opinion.Refs are mightier than the Police then,at least with them you can appeal their decisions.Refs are far from great at all levels, especially C.C.L.The thing that really bugs me,is the fitness levels of some Officials,overweight,slow as,watching the warm up gives me the greatest laugh.Always was told a fit body,develops an alert mind,no wonder we get so many poor decisions given.

[Krooner]

Get off your soap box Smudge.

 

all Level 4 referees have to pass a fitness test. I think that all AR's on the Premier Division should also have to pass a fitness test. It used to be done many years ago but the FA made the CCL back down from doing it.

[Smudge]

So,who arranges these fitness tests?And more so what does it involve.

[Krooner]

Gluck will tell you and if I am not mistaken it will be a little tougher next season too.

[Smudge]

PASSING THE BUCK,MR.KROONS.Harder next year,oh Officials you agree are not currently up to scratch fitness wise.Maybe a tie up with weight watchers would be a start.

[Krooner]

Why am I passing the buck. No longer involved with Refs so thought a current one would be able to give you the up to date definitive answer.

 

Also you will find most refs run more than all the players on the pitch over a game. Harsh to say they are not fit enough. Perhaps making it a bit harder will help them remove some refs as we know there are too many.

 

I think there should be a fitness test to ensure people have at least a basic fitness level to referee step 6 or above.

[Gluck_ab]

Smudge

 

I think some changes are needed to the laws but we need to remember that football is a game not just played by a relatively small number at a professional level but larger numbers at semi-professional level and greater numbers still at the amateur level. My concerns are that changes to the laws need to be applicable to the game as a whole and not just at the top end of the game. Regardless, just because my opinions in respect of E&E Ed's suggestions may differ from yours does not indicate that I think referees are mightier than the police with regard to decision-making. With regard to appealing against decisions made by the police, clubs may appeal, subject to stated criteria being met, against certain decisions made by referees.

 

With regard to fitness levels, the current FA mandated fitness test for L4 referees (those that do the CCL Prem games and are ARs at Contributory League level) is a minimum distance of 2500 metres run (slightly over 1.5 miles which equates to 6 full laps + 100 metres of a track) in 12 minutes followed by two 50 metre sprints in under 7.5 seconds. From next season the FA have increased the distance to be run to 2600 metre with the time remaining the same.

 

There is no mandatory fitness test for ARs on the CCL, these being L5, 6 and 7 referees, unless they are intending to apply for promotion from L5 to L4 in which case they must undertake the aforementioned fitness test.

 

Fitness tests for existing L4s are organised by the FA on a regional basis (normally held in June and July) whilst Surrey FA organise fitness tests for those L5 to L4 promotion candidates

 

With regards to warm-ups, in my opinion these are personal - for instance, as a referee I normally only do a couple of slow laps of the pitch followed by significantly more time doing stretches. This time also allows me to proactively manage players who may have the incorrect undershirt / shorts, still be wearing jewellery and see how far the GKs are kicking goal / fly kicks in their warm-up. It's each to their own in that respect and I appreciate others do things differently, and that at Contributory League level the warm-up may be more intensive (relatively speaking).

[Jurg78]

It may not be difficult to pace out ten yards but it appears to be for some people. Some quite clearly stride out ten paces while others shuffle along almost apologetically.

 

You are right that a proactive referee could sort much of these issues but as the game gets faster and faster it gets harder for him so "little technicalities" will get ignored for fear of being labelled fussy and pedantic..

 

I'm very interested in your view about the goal kick. Seeing as the laws currently permit a keeper to take the kick on either side then I don't see how an official can determine that they are time wasting. Certainly in the time since the rule has come in I've never seen anyone get even a warning. I just see no reason why the ref can't signal the side for the kick in exactly the same way that he does for a corner. It's a stupid rule that wasn't required in the first place.

 

Here is one with regards to the goal kick then, what if a forward hits his shot wide of the goal and the ball travels behind the back of the goal so the GK has to then retrieve it from the other side.

He could then take it from the side he has retrieved the ball and thus save time!! If he was to come back to the side the ball went out (as you would be wanting him to) he could be perceived as wasting time...no??

Nothing wrong with the rule as it is now. Plenty of refs have pulled me up for it over the years if he/she believes I'm time wasting and they are usually correct!

[Smudge]

What in your opinion should be a basic test?Making it a bit harder will help remove some Refs,as we know there are too many?Thought there was a shortage of Refs?or maybe a tongue in cheek comment from you?Does Match fitness i.e Reffing a game on a regular basis make a Ref fitter or will 2 games a month suffice.Players train twice a week,do Refs?

[Krooner]

similar to what they do now. A continuious run covering at least a certain distance plus the ability to put in 4 or 5 sprints in quick succession.

 

There is a shortage of refs Smudge. Just look at the number of games below the CCL that are not covered. How many reserve games in the CCL dont have assistants on. You would have to hope reducing the numbers above will filter down. But then maybe it will not

 

the guys may only ref twice a month but they will also run the line as well. Yes more games makes you match fitter.

 

Players train twice a week do they? You sure about that Smudge ? Most officials will officiate at least 2 games a week and yes I would imagine a number of Level 4 and 5 refs also train at least once a week. But once agian I will refer you to the guys on here who are still doing it.

[Gluck_ab]

Personally, I think the annual fitness test should more closely replicate the type and duration of running that a referee will do in a game. This does happen at Conference and Football League and it may eventually reach our level. As it is the FA set the standards to be met so those must suffice.

 

The test shouldn't be seen as a means of removing referees but rather as the minimum level required to referee at the specified level. Obviously some referees will be fitter than others in the same way that some players are fitter than others.

 

I think referees develop their match fitness in the same way players do too and I imagine that many will do additional training during the week or when they don't have a game for a period of time such as during the summer. You should remember too that quality of training is as important as quantity of training. Additionally, some referees may have more time to train or be involved in other activities that develop their fitness.

[Smudge]

Smudge

 

I think some changes are needed to the laws but we need to remember that football is a game not just played by a relatively small number at a professional level but larger numbers at semi-professional level and greater numbers still at the amateur level. My concerns are that changes to the laws need to be applicable to the game as a whole and not just at the top end of the game. Regardless, just because my opinions in respect of E&E Ed's suggestions may differ from yours does not indicate that I think referees are mightier than the police with regard to decision-making. With regard to appealing against decisions made by the police, clubs may appeal, subject to stated criteria being met, against certain decisions made by referees.

 

With regard to fitness levels, the current FA mandated fitness test for L4 referees (those that do the CCL Prem games and are ARs at Contributory League level) is a minimum distance of 2500 metres run (slightly over 1.5 miles which equates to 6 full laps + 100 metres of a track) in 12 minutes followed by two 50 metre sprints in under 7.5 seconds. From next season the FA have increased the distance to be run to 2600 metre with the time remaining the same.

 

There is no mandatory fitness test for ARs on the CCL, these being L5, 6 and 7 referees, unless they are intending to apply for promotion from L5 to L4 in which case they must undertake the aforementioned fitness test.

 

Fitness tests for existing L4s are organised by the FA on a regional basis (normally held in June and July) whilst Surrey FA organise fitness tests for those L5 to L4 promotion candidates

 

With regards to warm-ups, in my opinion these are personal - for instance, as a referee I normally only do a couple of slow laps of the pitch followed by significantly more time doing stretches. This time also allows me to proactively manage players who may have the incorrect undershirt / shorts, still be wearing jewellery and see how far the GKs are kicking goal / fly kicks in their warm-up. It's each to their own in that respect and I appreciate others do things differently, and that at Contributory League level the warm-up may be more intensive (relatively speaking).

 

Thanks for your reply,interesting to know that A/Rs in C.C.L.do not have to take a mandatory fitness test,due to their grade.This surely must have a knock on affect on their decision making,that the Ref has to rely on,to be in total control of the game.

[Gluck_ab]

Just because there isn't a mandatory fitness test for ARs on the CCL does not mean that they are not fit to AR at that level. Remember they are referees first and foremost and so are more than likely to do games on Sunday and during the week (for instance Ryman or Southern Youth League) and so will develop and maintain their fitness through these games too.

[E&E Rich]

Smudge your comments do not really help here.

 

You can't just throw a blanket over all refs and say they are all fit, unfit or whatever. Some may certainly look like they are struggling to keep up but you can't say that about all refs.

 

In fact it's just not possible to ever say anything that is such a generalisation and not expect derision in response.

 

Jurgen, I accept that you are a keeper, but I've spent thirty years stood behind the goal of the team that Epsom are attacking and in the time that this rule has been in place I have never ever heard a ref give a keeper a warning because he has taken the kick on the other side. The only times are when he is clearly delaying matters in other ways i.e. taking time to place the ball or walking very slowly towards it or with it. We have seen every type of wasting time there is in the book but this is one the ref seems powerless to stop.

 

I don't doubt that the intention of the rule was to allow the kick to be taken from either side and thus speed the game up, but in reality the keeper of a team that is winning will often use this as an opportunity to delay things, jogging across the six yard box with a real but false intent on showing the ref that he is not going slowly. And as far as I can see the ref can do little about it as the keeper is currently allowed to take the kick from whichever side he chooses.

 

And to quote your example, the ref could still indicate which side a kick is to be taken as he does for a corner.

Edited February 28, 2012 by E&E Ed

[Krooner]

I have done it many times ED but you are right. I find most keepers take the goal kick at the nearest corner point or around about until they are winning, esp in the 2nd half !!!!

[fairfranco]

once the ref has paced out his 10 yards he also needs to try to make sure they don't then move forward again.

 

I was amazed on Saturday that the ref didn't spot the most blatent move forward I'd ever seen. after being shuffled back to the ref's 10 yard mark, the South Kilburn players in unison jumped forward 2 yards together. This while the ref was still stood next to them!

 

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I don't agree with the point on moving ball, the ball shouldn't be moving when a free kick is given. A free kick needs to be clear by a static start.

 

Technology wise I think the goal line technology is a good thing but don't think challenges or technology used for other decisions should be used as, as has been pointed out by someone else, they are not FACTUAL decisions. Things such as fouls and hand balls are often (as football pundits make us so aware of!) quite open to debate and I think it wouldn't benefit the game to hand the decision to someone else based on numerous replays.

 

Incidentally I was a hell of a lot of cricket and personally think that the technology has been a positive step on the whole, though it still could do with a bit of improvement it has generally improved the decisions made and reduced errors by umpires. It has however seen umpires making decisions differently at times for lbw's to what they would have given prior to the challenge system.

[Don't Blame Me]

Had a very interesting discussion with a CCL referee recently. Why is it that they only get 2 middles a month? Complete farce if you ask me. How on earth are they ever going to improve or learn if they are prevented from doing middles?

[Mewcenary]

Had a very interesting discussion with a CCL referee recently. Why is it that they only get 2 middles a month? Complete farce if you ask me. How on earth are they ever going to improve or learn if they are prevented from doing middles?

 

A level 4 is also known as a Contributory League Assistant Referee. Therefore, they need to be running the line at contrib level as well. The FA takes them away for those, and the CCFL then fill up their fixture requirements with the level 4s available at the time.

 

The list of CCFL Referees that I had from the beginning of the season shows 33 referees to share the fixtures on the Premier.

[Gluck_ab]

WFCPE

 

I presume it was a Premier Division referee you were talking to? If so, those that referee at this, Supply League, level are Level 4 referees who also act as Assistant Referees (AR) at Contributory League level. Appointments are made from the top down so appointments as an AR take up the first tranche of a referee's availability and the remaining availability is then that of the Supply League on which s/he referees to use accordingly. Bear in mind that there are a finite number of games on a weekend and varying lesser numbers during the week so there is the need to have an optimum number of referees to meet the anticipated demand (Contributory and Supply League games) plus a surplus to meet ad-hoc requirements. If you add in FA Cup, FA Trophy and FA Vase appointments too and the referee's availability then an average of 2 games a month is about right. However, bear in mind that many of the L4 referees also referee on youth and Sunday football leagues so they will get games in this way too.

 

When referees get promoted to L4, it is recognised that their balance of middles / line will be likely to change as you cannot referee at that level without being available to be an AR at the next level.

 

It's not ideal but I can't see a way to solve this supply / demand and resource allocation issue without increasing the number of teams in a league to create extra games. I don't believe there will be a perfect solution but the development of referees is taken seriously by the FA through its National Referee Development Programme and by County FAs by their respective Referee Development Managers / Officers. In addition, referees at Supply League level receive regular formal assessments to assist in their development too.

 

Numbers at all levels are closely monitored and, as has been discussed previously, assessor and club marks contribute toward the bandings in which referees are placed at mid and end of season and which determine subsequent promotion / demotions.