Any Opinions???

[E&E Rich]

Thanks for all of the responses. I've certainly learned a lot about the areas covered by an assessor.

 

I do still have a couple of queries.

 

Gluck_ab I am actually doing a piece in Saturday's programme called Silly Rules, and ways that I feel the game could be improved. Some suggestions are radical, others are gentle tweaks. I may even post it on here after Saturday's game.

 

One of the suggestions I present is about a lack of knowledge in the stands and that it should be compulsory for each club to have a page at least twice a season whereby the F.A. produce a sort of education page, highlighting some of the common misconceptions or recent rule changes.

 

I fully accept that the spectators are often at fault and anything that improves the education of the game should be encouraged.

 

Only one thing. From what you describe it appears as though the only thing the assessor needs to be in the pre-march meeting is to describe the AR's duties. Could they not ask that after the game instead? Would it include things that are relevant to why some assistants flag immediately, while others wait until the "active" player is getting involved, and others wait until they've actually touched the ball?

 

Kroons I know you always tried to explain your decisions to people and personally, unless the ref is going to lecture someone for five minutes on a cold night, I'd much prefer it if everyone was that way. I still don't believe that everyone will scream "consistency" in the example you just quoted as most people would think that being booked for wasting time when their team was already behind was a more wrong decision. Maybe the perfect anwer here in such cases is that the law should be changed so a yellow isn't mandatory.

 

Picto Cotts I just have a problem with the last sentence which implies that for all the rules and regulations referred to above, referees will often do things differently if an assessor isn't present.

 

Which sort of begs the question, are the regulations correct in the first place? Or at the very least, the weightings?

 

Finally I am also intrigued by Smudge's comments about an assessor being at a lower level. Is this right?

[Mewcenary]

Kroons,so you were a Premier Referee at C.C.L. Level?Sorry for the mistake if I HAVE MADE ONE.

 

As for Referees bottom of the marking table being demoted, I welcome that news,but the only way us hardened supporters will know if a poorly performing Referee has been demoted,after we have seen a dire performance is HOW.Now that Football Mitoo do not post Refs names,hope Mr F. Collins was on that demoted list,was he?

 

The referee appointments are circulated to all referees and clubs each month. So they are not kept secret. The list of eligible referees is also published within the handbook and the website.

 

Also note that the performance-related demotion system also applies to Div 1 and Reserves, if I remember correctly, although based purely on club marks. This is because there is no requirement for referees to be assessed on those games, unless the referee in question requires it as part of their promotion season.

[Krooner]

Typical Response?Think you Refs should look closer to home,if a player is not up to scratch,he is released.Whereas if a Ref is not,it's called Sour Grapes,we must be wrong attitude.You only have to look at the difference between Premier and Div 1 Officials in this League,they all read the same Hymn Book,but all come up with a different interpretation,of how to apply the Rules.What I ask does the Referees Secretaries job entail and his 4 assistants.How can a lesser grade Ref,assess a higher grade Ref.is it because he comes at a cheaper price?

 

Ok Smudgey he we go.

 

The referees bottom of the marking table in the Premier division are removed from the list. So that corrects your mistake there Smudge. Look forward to the apology

 

Assessors can only assess up to the level that they referee - So that is another error of yours corrected. So I make that 2 apologies

 

Let me know if there is anything else you need correcting on Smudge.

 

Kroons,so you were a Premier Referee at C.C.L. Level?Sorry for the mistake if I HAVE MADE ONE.

 

As for Referees bottom of the marking table being demoted, I welcome that news,but the only way us hardened supporters will know if a poorly performing Referee has been demoted,after we have seen a dire performance is HOW.Now that Football Mitoo do not post Refs names,hope Mr F. Collins was on that demoted list,was he?

 

If Mr F Collins was in the bottom band Smudge he would have been and I look forward to that apology because yes I was

[Krooner]

Thanks for all of the responses. I've certainly learned a lot about the areas covered by an assessor.

 

I do still have a couple of queries.

 

Gluck_ab I am actually doing a piece in Saturday's programme called Silly Rules, and ways that I feel the game could be improved. Some suggestions are radical, others are gentle tweaks. I may even post it on here after Saturday's game.

 

One of the suggestions I present is about a lack of knowledge in the stands and that it should be compulsory for each club to have a page at least twice a season whereby the F.A. produce a sort of education page, highlighting some of the common misconceptions or recent rule changes.

 

I fully accept that the spectators are often at fault and anything that improves the education of the game should be encouraged.

 

Only one thing. From what you describe it appears as though the only thing the assessor needs to be in the pre-march meeting is to describe the AR's duties. Could they not ask that after the game instead? Would it include things that are relevant to why some assistants flag immediately, while others wait until the "active" player is getting involved, and others wait until they've actually touched the ball?

 

Kroons I know you always tried to explain your decisions to people and personally, unless the ref is going to lecture someone for five minutes on a cold night, I'd much prefer it if everyone was that way. I still don't believe that everyone will scream "consistency" in the example you just quoted as most people would think that being booked for wasting time when their team was already behind was a more wrong decision. Maybe the perfect anwer here in such cases is that the law should be changed so a yellow isn't mandatory.

 

Picto Cotts I just have a problem with the last sentence which implies that for all the rules and regulations referred to above, referees will often do things differently if an assessor isn't present.

 

Which sort of begs the question, are the regulations correct in the first place? Or at the very least, the weightings?

 

Finally I am also intrigued by Smudge's comments about an assessor being at a lower level. Is this right?

 

nope it isnt

 

Look forward to the article Ed. Not sure it will make much difference because people are not interested in KNOWING the laws but are very interested in screaming their opinion and KNOWING it is right Not using a name when calling for the ball being the prime one.

 

Do please post your article on here I am sure it will be an interesting read and I reckon there will be plenty in there that people agree with. Unfortunately none of us run the bloody game so cannot change the laws to suit what we all know but the wallys at the top dont !!!!

[Smudge]

Apologies then Kroons,so you were Premier Referee and an assessor at the same time.Or maybe you stepped down a level,the first time we ever met.

[Smudge]

Thanks for all of the responses. I've certainly learned a lot about the areas covered by an assessor.

 

I do still have a couple of queries.

 

Gluck_ab I am actually doing a piece in Saturday's programme called Silly Rules, and ways that I feel the game could be improved. Some suggestions are radical, others are gentle tweaks. I may even post it on here after Saturday's game.

 

One of the suggestions I present is about a lack of knowledge in the stands and that it should be compulsory for each club to have a page at least twice a season whereby the F.A. produce a sort of education page, highlighting some of the common misconceptions or recent rule changes.

 

I fully accept that the spectators are often at fault and anything that improves the education of the game should be encouraged.

 

Only one thing. From what you describe it appears as though the only thing the assessor needs to be in the pre-march meeting is to describe the AR's duties. Could they not ask that after the game instead? Would it include things that are relevant to why some assistants flag immediately, while others wait until the "active" player is getting involved, and others wait until they've actually touched the ball?

 

Kroons I know you always tried to explain your decisions to people and personally, unless the ref is going to lecture someone for five minutes on a cold night, I'd much prefer it if everyone was that way. I still don't believe that everyone will scream "consistency" in the example you just quoted as most people would think that being booked for wasting time when their team was already behind was a more wrong decision. Maybe the perfect anwer here in such cases is that the law should be changed so a yellow isn't mandatory.

 

Picto Cotts I just have a problem with the last sentence which implies that for all the rules and regulations referred to above, referees will often do things differently if an assessor isn't present.

 

Which sort of begs the question, are the regulations correct in the first place? Or at the very least, the weightings?

 

Finally I am also intrigued by Smudge's comments about an assessor being at a lower level. Is this right?

 

nope it isnt

 

Look forward to the article Ed. Not sure it will make much difference because people are not interested in KNOWING the laws but are very interested in screaming their opinion and KNOWING it is right Not using a name when calling for the ball being the prime one.

 

Do please post your article on here I am sure it will be an interesting read and I reckon there will be plenty in there that people agree with. Unfortunately none of us run the bloody game so cannot change the laws to suit what we all know but the wallys at the top dont !!!!

 

Wallys? Would you care to enlighten us?

[Krooner]

Blatter

[Gluck_ab]

E&E Ed

 

Good stuff - I think you should post your programme page on this subject as that's the purpose of this forum; to exchange information, news and opinions. The more (relevant and correct) stuff that's out there the better!

 

On the briefing issue, my instructions to ARs are;

 

'All offsides are yours unless you're incorrect in law [see below]. Use the 'wait and see' technique [more below] but the only time I need an early flag is if there's any likelihood of a collision between an attacking player and the goalkeeper. The closer we get to the half-way line be more precise where the ball is placed as the drop-zone is likely to be in the opposition penalty area'

 

Now bear in mind that ARs are qualified referees so I shouldn't be teaching them what they already know, only how I want them to apply that knowledge and their experience.

 

The parts above in parenthesis;

 

Incorrect in law - for instance, the AR indicates a player is in an offside position but because of my position relative to that of the AR I can see that he is not active.

 

Wait and see technique - where the AR waits to see if a player becomes active. In some cases this will be when the player touches the ball but also because that player doesn't need to touch the ball to become active. This distinction is more obvious when he is the only player involved. Similarly, less experienced ARs often flag when the ball hasn't reached the player in an offside position, i.e it's been cut out by a defender. Alternatively the ball may run through to the keeper and it's more of an advantage for him to have a fly kick from his hands than a free-kick on the ground in which case a flag isn't always necessary.

 

Some referees also differ in what involvement they want their ARs to have in terms of fouls and misconduct, penalties and mass confrontation, so the assessor would need to hear those instructions. Basically if the referee's instructions are unclear or the ARs don't understand them the potential for something to go wrong is there. A tenet of refereeing is 'no surprises' so it is worth the referee concluding his instructions with 'have I missed anything and do you have any questions?'.

 

At intermediate Saturday and Sunday football I brief the club assistants in the presence of their team captains. At Supply League level this isn't necessary but I do wonder if it would make any difference if I did. What I do say to the captains at the toss-up is 'to work with us [officials] as a team, that i'm happy to speak to them in close proximity but not if they gob off at me from a distance and that as they know who their team's potential drama merchants are, I expect them to deal with these players before I have to.'

[Smudge]

Gluck sensible approach,but have you found that when being assessed you do anything differently to normal.I personally find that younger officials that I have seen,have had good games in normal circumstances by my standards,but when being assessed apply the rules to the letter.

[Gluck_ab]

Personally no I don't think so - at least nothing consciously - but then you could say 'you would say that!'

 

Of the 17 games i've reffed this season (12 x CCL, 3 x County / League Cup, 1 x FA Vase and 1 x Premier League Academy game) i've been assessed on 9 of those games (5 x CCL, 3 x County / League Cup and 1 x FA Vase) and my club and assessor marks are only 1 marking band apart of each other as at 31 December 2011. To me that would indicate that I don't do anything differently.

 

For reference, club and assessor marks contribute to a referee's banding position in terms of bands A to E in both. The marking season runs from 01 March in one year to 28 February in the next with banding positions being published as at the mid (30 October) and end of marking season points. However, we did receive bandings as at 31 December 2011 too. Based on their banding positions referees can be promoted or demoted accordingly.

[Picto Cotts]

Thanks for that reply Picto,so you are verifying what people say about when Assessors are present.More stricter application of the Rules.Can you answer this question,who pays the Assessors fee,The F.A.or County F.A.

 

the League pay the assessor and I believe that they get some of the money back from the FA. Not 100% certain on all of that though.

I'm fairly certain that the County FA pay the assessors fee, currently £10 and also travel expenses at 30p per mile.

[Don't Blame Me]

Thanks for all of the responses. I've certainly learned a lot about the areas covered by an assessor.

 

I do still have a couple of queries.

 

Gluck_ab I am actually doing a piece in Saturday's programme called Silly Rules, and ways that I feel the game could be improved. Some suggestions are radical, others are gentle tweaks. I may even post it on here after Saturday's game.

 

One of the suggestions I present is about a lack of knowledge in the stands and that it should be compulsory for each club to have a page at least twice a season whereby the F.A. produce a sort of education page, highlighting some of the common misconceptions or recent rule changes.

 

I fully accept that the spectators are often at fault and anything that improves the education of the game should be encouraged.

 

Only one thing. From what you describe it appears as though the only thing the assessor needs to be in the pre-march meeting is to describe the AR's duties. Could they not ask that after the game instead? Would it include things that are relevant to why some assistants flag immediately, while others wait until the "active" player is getting involved, and others wait until they've actually touched the ball?

 

Kroons I know you always tried to explain your decisions to people and personally, unless the ref is going to lecture someone for five minutes on a cold night, I'd much prefer it if everyone was that way. I still don't believe that everyone will scream "consistency" in the example you just quoted as most people would think that being booked for wasting time when their team was already behind was a more wrong decision. Maybe the perfect anwer here in such cases is that the law should be changed so a yellow isn't mandatory.

 

Picto Cotts I just have a problem with the last sentence which implies that for all the rules and regulations referred to above, referees will often do things differently if an assessor isn't present.

 

Which sort of begs the question, are the regulations correct in the first place? Or at the very least, the weightings?

 

Finally I am also intrigued by Smudge's comments about an assessor being at a lower level. Is this right?

 

You B*****D!!! I was thinking of doing something similar in one of the next Windsor programmes!!!

 

Great idea though. I was thinking of contacting the CCL Ref Sec to see if there was any mileage in an article.

 

Anyone remember the old Shoot! magazine "You Are The Ref" cartoons?

[Krooner]

Yerp and am showing my age as you are too

[E&E Rich]

Interesting stuff, thanks. I consider myself enlightened! All things considered though I still think the Horley ref was crap

 

And yes I shall put my article on next week. Sorry Windsor Ed, but then I'm sure your piece would cover some completely different areas, so by all means have a go yourself too.

 

I had an idea a few years back for a tv programme, based loosely on the reality show Bad Lads Army that was around a few years back. The idea was called You Are The Ref, as a homage to those old cartoons which I think were also in a Daily paper for a while.

 

The premise was to take a dozen rabid one-eyed supporters who always think the ref is wrong and put them through an intense training course. The intention was to follow them through the season and to have them reffing at a reasonable level fairly quickly, but after discussion with Ray Lewis that target was revised to a charity type match at Wembley before a major final. It would have educated everyone but I ran out of time to push it further.

 

I thought it had legs though and Ray seemed quite keen as it would have promoted the idea to the masses that refereeing is very difficult.

Edited February 23, 2012 by E&E Ed

[Gluck_ab]

This feature is now in The Guardian newspaper on a Tuesday.

 

Here's the link to the site too, http://youarethereferee.com/

[Don't Blame Me]

For me, apart from the application of the laws and match control, I would love to see a bigger weighting assigned to communication. This was one area where the referee in the Chessington v Windsor game last Saturday was absolutely brilliant at. Probably the best communicator I have seen this season.

[Don't Blame Me]

This feature is now in The Guardian newspaper on a Tuesday.

 

Here's the link to the site too, http://youarethereferee.com/

 

Copyright might be an issue. Curiously, Windsor has more Daily Mail readers than Grauniad ones

[Picto Cotts]

Thanks for that reply Picto,so you are verifying what people say about when Assessors are present.More stricter application of the Rules.Can you answer this question,who pays the Assessors fee,The F.A.or County F.A.

All I'm saying is that in certain circumstances referees can employ a little discretion and avoid 'soft' cautions, thereby keeping clubs happier, when assessors are not present. When an assessor is present he cannot employ any discretion in situations where a caution is mandatory in law. For foul physical challenges you would caution, if necessary, regardless of an assessors presence in a bid to retain credability and match control. More assessors should mean more referees applying law consistantly, therefore reducing foul play, denial of goal scoring opportunities, dissent and timewasting making the game more entertaining to play and watch.

I might suggest that some younger, less experienced referees revert to issuing cards possibly due to the fact that they may not have developed the man management skills older colleagues employ to maintain match control.

[Gluck_ab]

Here's the link to it on The Guardian website, http://www.guardian....ref-trevillion# .

[Picto Cotts]

Thanks for all of the responses. I've certainly learned a lot about the areas covered by an assessor.

 

I do still have a couple of queries.

 

Gluck_ab I am actually doing a piece in Saturday's programme called Silly Rules, and ways that I feel the game could be improved. Some suggestions are radical, others are gentle tweaks. I may even post it on here after Saturday's game.

 

One of the suggestions I present is about a lack of knowledge in the stands and that it should be compulsory for each club to have a page at least twice a season whereby the F.A. produce a sort of education page, highlighting some of the common misconceptions or recent rule changes.

 

I fully accept that the spectators are often at fault and anything that improves the education of the game should be encouraged.

 

Only one thing. From what you describe it appears as though the only thing the assessor needs to be in the pre-march meeting is to describe the AR's duties. Could they not ask that after the game instead? Would it include things that are relevant to why some assistants flag immediately, while others wait until the "active" player is getting involved, and others wait until they've actually touched the ball?

 

Kroons I know you always tried to explain your decisions to people and personally, unless the ref is going to lecture someone for five minutes on a cold night, I'd much prefer it if everyone was that way. I still don't believe that everyone will scream "consistency" in the example you just quoted as most people would think that being booked for wasting time when their team was already behind was a more wrong decision. Maybe the perfect anwer here in such cases is that the law should be changed so a yellow isn't mandatory.

 

Picto Cotts I just have a problem with the last sentence which implies that for all the rules and regulations referred to above, referees will often do things differently if an assessor isn't present.

 

Which sort of begs the question, are the regulations correct in the first place? Or at the very least, the weightings?

 

Finally I am also intrigued by Smudge's comments about an assessor being at a lower level. Is this right?

 

You B*****D!!! I was thinking of doing something similar in one of the next Windsor programmes!!!

 

Great idea though. I was thinking of contacting the CCL Ref Sec to see if there was any mileage in an article.

 

Anyone remember the old Shoot! magazine "You Are The Ref" cartoons?

Odds on people suggest removing the requirement for an injured player to be removed from the field of play. I'd just remind you that a player can only be assessed on the field of play but must be removed from the field of play to receive treatment. Do we really go back to those bad old days of players feighning injury to break up play and waste time?