Step 5 Restructuring

[E&E Rich]

Agreed Krooner, more and more teams will become eligible in time and without change in this area we will be stuck.

 

I want to point out that this next point is nothing to do with any criticsm of the CCL. However, most teams probably won't care which league they are in as long as all the admin is done well and they are kept informed. That may not seem very loyal to the CCL, but half the teams are aiming to go up right now, so you could argue that they all want a different league too!

 

From Epsom's point of view, whether in Merstham or in Epsom we would get a few trips to the coast, and the FA did advise that the longer trips would of course be scheduled for the weekends, although of course couldn't guarantee the situation with rearranged matches following postponements. It would increase our travelling a little, but everyone else in Step Five would be in the same boat, so you wouldn't lose players to rival clubs because of it, as used to happen to Camberley and Epsom when we were in the Ryman Two with Chertsey.

 

Brook House (now AFC Hayes) made up our "local" Associate Members Group in 2004/05, while the other twelve clubs were North of the river. Meanwhile our local rivals were playing CCL with much nearer fixtures. Now that was a shambles.

 

VP you're right in that most teams will ultimately be in favour of it, and it should be remembered that at least 8 of the 14 leagues are, with Western and Northern non-committal according to what was revealed at Sunday's meeting. Only 4 were against it out of which it is not rocket science to work out that the CCL, UCL and Sussex are three.

 

From our League's point of view though, yes there may be issues with things like admin or referees, but if we were able to push for teams of 24 in Step Four, thus allowing more promotion places, I see no major reason why our league shouldn't accept it too. Not that our League currently want twenty four in Step Four, but I just think it would be the best way to ease the bottleneck that currently exists in getting 287 Step Five clubs down to 264. 12 more up, maybe even next season's runners-up would enable things to kick off in 2012/13 with only 275 clubs.

 

The problem occurs if say twenty teams in Sussex decide they want to stay as they are, effectively taking a drop to Step 6, but arguably becoming better than many Step Five clubs as they would have less travel costs, so can offer more money to disillusioned players who don't fancy the extra travel either.

 

You could say that is a short sighted view unless they wish to stay at Step six forever, but some may just decide to wait there for a while and move up when 1) the extra promotion issue is agreed and 2) they have more savings because they didn't spend so much on travel.

 

In fact, off on a slight tangent, but unwittingly I may have hit on an idea here.

 

What if every Step Five club in the London area said they were not in favour of the proposal and would drop to step 6 unless a second promotion place was guaranteed? It might be a risky game to play as the FA could just abandon the whole project, but they certainly couldn't proceed with it if say 80 clubs chose to opt-out. The pressure from the bulk of regional leagues who are in favour might actually force the FA to act on a promotion place sooner rather than later.

 

A bit radical, I realise, and it might be worth seeing how brave these Sussex clubs are before considering whether to join in. Many were quite angry with the whole proposal on Sunday but how many would actually drop to Step Six when push came to shove?

 

Maybe one for the CCL and Sussex to discuss!

Edited January 17, 2012 by E&E Ed

[Non League Nigel]

2 things

I think it does matter who runs the league. The CCL is extremley well run whilst the Sussex seems a shambles and fixtures are done on a monthly basis

 

If a number of Sussex clubs decided to dro to step 6 would teams like ourselves who were unfortunate to be demoted to step 6 when the Ryman clubs came down be placed back at step 5 (subject to ground grading )

 

[Terrence Collina]

2 things

I think it does matter who runs the league. The CCL is extremley well run whilst the Sussex seems a shambles and fixtures are done on a monthly basis

 

If a number of Sussex clubs decided to dro to step 6 would teams like ourselves who were unfortunate to be demoted to step 6 when the Ryman clubs came down be placed back at step 5 (subject to ground grading )

 

Perhaps the FA should enforce a full fixture list as a mandatory requirement for the 'new' leagues.

[Krooner]

2 things

I think it does matter who runs the league. The CCL is extremley well run whilst the Sussex seems a shambles and fixtures are done on a monthly basis

 

If a number of Sussex clubs decided to dro to step 6 would teams like ourselves who were unfortunate to be demoted to step 6 when the Ryman clubs came down be placed back at step 5 (subject to ground grading )

 

I would imagine if the FA want 12 x 22 and they didnt have enough clubs then they would do that Nigel.

 

I agree it matters who runs the league and for all my dealings and despite what Smudge may say I find the CCL very well run. I am sure the guys who wish to remain will be involved.

[Green_Fingers]

2 things

I think it does matter who runs the league. The CCL is extremley well run whilst the Sussex seems a shambles and fixtures are done on a monthly basis

 

If a number of Sussex clubs decided to dro to step 6 would teams like ourselves who were unfortunate to be demoted to step 6 when the Ryman clubs came down be placed back at step 5 (subject to ground grading )

 

Came down? they were at the same level they came accross. In your scenario NLN I would hazard a guess that teams to fill the vacancies would be measured on a points per game basis accross all potential leagues not just CCL.

[bomaya]

What if every Step Five club in the London area said they were not in favour of the proposal and would drop to step 6 unless a second promotion place was guaranteed? It might be a risky game to play as the FA could just abandon the whole project, but they certainly couldn't proceed with it if say 80 clubs chose to opt-out. The pressure from the bulk of regional leagues who are in favour might actually force the FA to act on a promotion place sooner rather than later.

 

A bit radical, I realise, and it might be worth seeing how brave these Sussex clubs are before considering whether to join in. Many were quite angry with the whole proposal on Sunday but how many would actually drop to Step Six when push came to shove?

 

Maybe one for the CCL and Sussex to discuss!

 

I thought that was what we WERE proposing. And why I became a bit downbeat when it seemed like everyone was just prepared to bend over. Demand two promotion places I say!

[Krooner]

Bommie I think that is what everyone wants and a number beleive that 12 leagues is the first step too it.

[bomaya]

IF the FA were to commit to this then I would be whole-heartedly behind it but they aren't doing that. They just want to tidy up their pyramid...or should I say Eiffel Tower...and reduce some Southern leagues because of the N/S inbalance.

[Krooner]

Agreed but we need to walk before we run.

[Smudge]

Been mugged off,with promises.Never happens or does it,CHEQUE in the post Kroons,ring any bells?

[Krooner]

Only time has the answer Smudge. you are half empty and I am half full.

[Weeble]

What is the CCL boards view on all of this Whitelaw??? or can we not say at the moment.

[E&E Rich]

That's a little negative Smudge. Just because certain things may not have happened in the past, doesn't mean that this will be the same here. There is no comparable situation to this in history with the possible amalgamation of the Corinthian, Athenian and Delphian Leagues in 1963 maybe being the only similar situation. Arguably this is the most significant movement in British football history, far bigger than the steps 1 - 4 reorganisation which it should be pointed out everyone accepts and gets on with, unless you live in Gloucester or Bishops Stortford but I digress. If everyone took on the same attitude nothing would ever get done and say what you like about the FA, they are doing something here.

 

Leagues do disappear, and again the best administrators will be the ones asked by the FA to administer I would imagine.

 

Bomaya I totally agree about two promotion places, but the tricky bit is how far do you push before the FA say, sorry, we've decided you're all a pain in the backside at step five and we'll leave you as you are. We'll never get another promotion place if that happens, so must be careful as must the leagues, many of whose administrators do not individually want to become persona non grata in FA circles.

 

NLN, I am certain that clubs at Step 6 will get a chance if there are spaces, which is why clubs like Shoreham and Three Bridges in my opinion will not protest unless there are at least 40-50 clubs with them. The FA would probably be happy to demote twenty as it would make their sums easier, and if it were thirty or forty, then there may well be places for clubs from Step 6 that meet the F grade criteria.

 

If I was to stick my neck out a little here, I would say that this suggestion will go through more or less in its entirety unless someone can convince the FA there is a better answer, and right now I can't see one as 14 divisions is a mathematical anomaly that needs levelling out. I would be very surprised if more than a handful of clubs across the country actually self-relegate themselves, but in these twitter inspired times we've seen massive groundswells of opinion and if someone in Sussex or UCL was really keen to push this, you might get some success, but I don't think it will help us in the short or even the medium term. We must remember though that most of the country are much less affected than the south east by this and are actively keen on its acceptance.

 

And for what its worth right now, so am I.

[lazarus]

To answer the question, at this moment the Management Committee do not support the proposal and can see no real advantage in it if the only reason is to ensure that no-one will be denied promotion if there are more than twelve champion clubs eligible. So far that is the one reason we have been given. There is an easy way round that anyway, should it ever happen, which is to run one or two of the Step 4 Divisions with an extra club for a season. Without a better reason, we do not support it as we feel the overall upheaval is not justified.

 

I will say though that if a majority of our clubs, officially through their secretaries and chairmen (and so far I have only heard from one CCL Secretary, who is dead against it) take a different view and support the proposal, then we would obviously respect that and represent thew Clubs' overall views. It is likely that we will be having a meeting of clubs in due course, once all the FA consultation meetings currently going on are complete.

 

I can only say again that providing any additional promotion places for Step 5 clubs is not part of the proposal. Neither was there any reference to it in the FA Press Release, sent to all clubs. If that was part of it, I am sure our view would change in an instant but I believe that anyone who thinks that extra promotion will come as a result of this specific proposal is simply wrong. We have indeed been at the forefront of asking for additional promotion places, as someone has said, and will continue to be so but whilst the Leagues Committee has representation from all Step 3/4 leagues but none from Step 5, my personal view is that it won't happen, certainly not in the near future. If it's being dangled in front of clubs at these regional meetings, I would reserve judgement as I believe the only way there will be extra promotion will be if clubs going out of business are replaced by promotion candidates, as opposed to handing out reprieves, but that is nothing to do with this proposal.

 

Indeed for the bulk of existing CCL, Kent and Sussex clubs, promotion opportunities will actually be reduced (three current leagues going down to two in the SE corner). It is only those clubs who may go into divisions other than the London SW or SE that would remain in a "one for one" situation. Please remember also that the allocation list is only a snapshot of the current situation with plenty of time for changes. I believe the Western League, for example, intend to ask for some form of re-allocation, which could lead to a fewer number of current Hellenic clubs going to that division, which in turn may reduce the number of our clubs going into the Central Division. There will doubtless be all sorts of similar situations.

 

Yes it looks neater on paper and some clubs will indeed have less travelling. Many will have more. Yes, of course, whoever's doing it, I am sure that efforts will be made initially to schedule the longer trips for Saturdays but even that cannot be guaranteed completely if the first rule of providing a full set of fixtures each week is to be maintained. If you have an annual list, postponements for cup matches and bad weather will still be re-arranged for midweek, irrespective of the journey and in a season with lots of bad weather such as the last two years, there would be plenty. Bear in mind that whilst supporters and maybe most club officials have only to get to a game by kick-off, players and managers need to be at grounds at least an hour before kick-off probably longer. Maybe I am over emphasising this aspect but my own club has had plenty of experience in having to get up to the Midlands or the seaside in recent seasons on Tuesday evenings and it is never easy.

 

The only alternatives are either to revert to a monthly list (which the clubs voted by a large majority to scrap several seasons ago) or continually alter the fixtures, which means it's not worth having an annual list in the first place.

[Smudge]

Thanks Alan,at least you can see the Woods from the Trees.

[Krooner]

Thanks for that Whitelaw.

[NICE GUY]

Will anyone actually be relegated from Ryman South Div. 1 now that Criydon Athletic have iofficially withdrawn from the league ?

 

Would Guildford, Windsor or whoever take Croydon Athletic place ?

[bomaya]

Why not? There are two relegation spots so at the moment Whyteleafe would drop into the CCL.

[Smudge]

Think you may be wrong there Bommie,surely they would go to the Evo Stik due to their location.

[Weeble]

Cheers Boycie......