Step 5 Restructuring

[Smudge]

Maybe you should of gone anti - clockwise?Much shorter surely.

[Krooner]

Force what?

Remember that the FA aren't forcing any club or league to be part of the National League System. The Surrey Elite league has given up trying to be part of the system as the FA won't play ball. In fact they've recently downgraded 30 or 40 leagues at step 7 which effectively takes them out of the system and given them strict conditions regarding who they allow to be members if they want to be allowed back in.

In the end, the whole system belongs to the FA and there's little anyone can do about it. In this area they can always say that if we don't like it we can form our own league outside the National League System or join the AFA or something. They've got 23 clubs too many at step 5 for the new system so they'd probably welcome a few resignations.

 

Weight of numbers can do things VP. I wasnt suggesting quitting the system.

 

Isnt there a petition you can set up somewhere that if you get 100,000 signatures it gets aired in Parliment. Who fancies having a pop at that !!

[Footy Mad]

Force what?

Remember that the FA aren't forcing any club or league to be part of the National League System. The Surrey Elite league has given up trying to be part of the system as the FA won't play ball. In fact they've recently downgraded 30 or 40 leagues at step 7 which effectively takes them out of the system and given them strict conditions regarding who they allow to be members if they want to be allowed back in.

In the end, the whole system belongs to the FA and there's little anyone can do about it. In this area they can always say that if we don't like it we can form our own league outside the National League System or join the AFA or something. They've got 23 clubs too many at step 5 for the new system so they'd probably welcome a few resignations.

 

Weight of numbers can do things VP. I wasnt suggesting quitting the system.

 

Isnt there a petition you can set up somewhere that if you get 100,000 signatures it gets aired in Parliment. Who fancies having a pop at that !!

 

Can the petition be done on-line? Should be easy for some of the computer boffs we have on here.

Easy to get signatures then from all over the country

[Footy Mad]

Perhaps Guildford Sweeney could organise a protest march

[Krooner]

www.epetitions.direct.gov.uk

[Chris Clapham]

Under 10 CCL clubs attending doesn't surprise me.

As has been underlined many times, the FA changes are a "done deal" with only the administration of the new divisions and possible extra promotion places of any real interest to clubs.

Most of the information on how it will work was already with the clubs.

This was certainly the thinking at CWUFC (where we were going to attend with a Div 1 club chairman) but it was decided that the journey would be unnecessary and, it would appear, that is the case.

So there we have it.

All that remains for us is to see if we will be playing at step 5 or 6 in August 2013.

Business as usual; to try to avoid relegation this and next season and make any ground alterations needed to retain our "F" grade.

I get the impression that most, though certainly not all, CCL clubs aren't totally against the changes currently proposed.

[Non League Nigel]

Whats happening at Step 6? Will we be making trips to Cow Fields near Haywards Heath?

[Smudge]

You will indeed.But who cares,and my guess is the C.C.L. will not run a League under any guise.The best plan is always divide and conquer,and that is what the F.A. have done in this case.10 Clubs going,no pre meeting,shows no stomach for a fight.Yes Sir,No Sir,do what you like Sir,attitude.How did we ever win 2 World Wars,not by giving in.I'M ALRIGHT JACK SYNDROME.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Smudge

[Krooner]

Perhaps the overwhelming majority of clubs are for it Smudge and it is just yuo whose mind is closed to change ?

[E&E Rich]

I was at the meeting and can answer a few of the queries I have seen here.

 

Firstly, I can confirm that I saw representatives from Badshot Lea, Mole Valley SCR, South Park, Raynes Park Vale, and of course Epsom & Ewell, in addition Neil Morrell and Chris Conlon were there. Sorry if I've missed anyone. Both myself and Mark from Badshot had a chance to speak while Chris also added some pertinent views later in the meeting.

 

Many clubs were not represented despite this being a much better opportunity to push your case than a petition. In fairness the Sussex League guys raised some very valid points.

 

Right, onto the rest. Absolutely NOTHING will happen at Step 6 for the forseeable future. There was no mention of any changes to ground gradings and floodlights were not mentioned, largely because this was very much a Step five meeting, even if the review heading said Step 5/6.

 

Whilst I believe that the FA will try to force this, or a similar structure through, the tone of the meeting was very conciliatory and they really did seem open to suggestions. One of which was to keep the structure as it was but relegate three teams from each step four league. However, it was said that whilst three down may be an option in the future (and I can confirm Whitelaw's comments that no concession was given on this subject at the meeting) the structure needed to go from 14 DIVISIONS to 12 first.

 

I put that in capitals because it is all about having 12 22 team divisions and not 14 divisions. To a certain extent they've thrown all the Step five clubs on the floor and picked them up in what appears to be the best and fairest way that they can. Inevitably people will look at the two furthest clubs apart and throw a big mileage out, but someone will always lose.

 

As the Reading Town Chairman said yesterday, teams at Step Five should be ambitious, and if they are, then at step four there would be more travelling anyway. I suggested sugaring this pill with the two promotion places, and although it may not come about until 2014/15 I believe that it has to and will happen because so many clubs want it.

 

People moaned about travel costs and it should be pointed out that of all 14 leagues we have the smallest average journey of 46 miles per game. In Epsom's suggested new division the London SW it would rise to 53, still the smallest, but other areas did not fare so well.

 

No clubs with an F grade would be relegated and currently there are 287 at Step five going into 264, so divisions may be as high as 25 in some areas for a season or two although promotion from step 6 will continue while the divisions align to 22 each.

 

Mike Appleby mentioned, quite validly I thought (but some felt he was being flippant) that the first club he looked at recently of those who applied for step four advised travel costs of £3750 but player costs of £66k. While that may have been an exception, I would be surprised if any club exceeds their playing budget with their travel budget unless they are totally and completely amateur. Apologies if I'm wrong, but certainly the more ambitious ones wouldn't.

 

In summary, I thought the new idea was refreshing and long overdue. The FA has finally grasped the nettle and should be commended for at least trying. That said I sympathise with clubs like Shoreham that would have some large journeys. I think it is workable but the extra costs must have associated reward and in the absence of a "balloon payment" ludicrously suggested by the guy at Peacehaven, moments after he said they were applying for Step Four, a second promotion place is all we can hope to achieve.

 

Finally I must advise that the FA were very keen to stress at every opportunity that this is just a suggestion and nowhere near a proposal at this stage. Also with two more promotions and relegations in our area before this is confirmed, it is hard to do much more than they have suggested at present. The FA know they can get a majority on this, but in their view clearly 200 clubs in favour is nowhere near enough. They really want 250 in my opinion.

 

If clubs are not happy, clubs could choose to self-relegate themselves to Step 6, and if there were a significant amount then this may cause trouble as the FA need 264 really for this to work. However, be under no illusion, the FA will probably go ahead even if there are less clubs, which might involve smaller divisions to start with, or many extra step six clubs, although many of those curently in step six may get invited to take the "self-relegatees" place, which in our area might well result in the travel distances going down further, as we have many step 6 clubs that could go up with a minimal amount of work.

 

I shall log on here at about 4.30 today, so if you have any other questions, fire away and I'll try to answer them.

[Green_Fingers]

"I suggested sugaring this pill with the two promotion places, and although it may not come about until 2014/15 I believe that it has to and will happen because so many clubs want it"

 

Ed - presume "so many Clubs want it" means Step 5 Clubs - can't see too many Step 4 Clubs wanting the threat of an extra relegation slot without their pill being "sugared" with the possibility of an extra promotion slot?

 

Also, you mentioned a suggestion of 3 teams relegated from Step 4, but it would need 4 teams relegated to create space for 2 promoted teams from Step 5 - was there any discussion about inter-league play-offs?

 

Finally, do the FA need a majority or is the decision of the Committee (made up of Step 4 & above members) final & binding?

[Krooner]

Cheers Ed very informative and thanks to all the CCL guys who took time out of THEIR own time to go to the meeting.

[Smudge]

Perhaps the overwhelming majority of clubs are for it Smudge and it is just yuo whose mind is closed to change ?

 

Kroons what a ridiculous statement,the Step 5 Clubs,will never have had a better chance of securing a further Promotion place than this.Shame on the Combined Counties Clubs who never attended this meeting.Praise to the Clubs who did.NONE OF THE SO CALLED BIG HITTERS,could spend a few hours putting across their point of view.Do they really think they will not be in Step 5 next year and the Year after well I think their in for a shock.

[NICE GUY]

Yeah, I've got something to say E&E Ed....... a massive THANK YOU for your impressive detailed report back to us forumrites.

[Green_Fingers]

Perhaps the overwhelming majority of clubs are for it Smudge and it is just yuo whose mind is closed to change ?

 

Kroons what a ridiculous statement,the Step 5 Clubs,will never have had a better chance of securing a further Promotion place than this.Shame on the Combined Counties Clubs who never attended this meeting.Praise to the Clubs who did.NONE OF THE SO CALLED BIG HITTERS,could spend a few hours putting across their point of view.Do they really think they will not be in Step 5 next year and the Year after well I think their in for a shock.

 

Smudge this meeting was never about Step 5 Clubs securing a further promotion place. The FA made it clear the meeting was to discuss their plan to match the 12 relegation places from Step 4 with just 12 promotion places. Of course all Step 5 Clubs want an extra promotion place - but that will be another discussion way in the future and that discussion has to include Step 4 Clubs. Cannot see it happening soon

Edited January 16, 2012 by Green_Fingers

[Smudge]

So no reason for Kroons e-petition then,it is a done deal.Which I think it is,but let's just hope that Guildford and Guernsey vote for 1 more promotion place in 2014/15 as Step 4 Clubs.

[NICE GUY]

I was at the meeting and can answer a few of the queries I have seen here.

 

Firstly, I can confirm that I saw representatives from Badshot Lea, Mole Valley SCR, South Park, Raynes Park Vale, and of course Epsom & Ewell, in addition Neil Morrell and Chris Conlon were there. Sorry if I've missed anyone. Both myself and Mark from Badshot had a chance to speak while Chris also added some pertinent views later in the meeting.

 

Many clubs were not represented despite this being a much better opportunity to push your case than a petition. In fairness the Sussex League guys raised some very valid points.

 

Right, onto the rest. Absolutely NOTHING will happen at Step 6 for the forseeable future. There was no mention of any changes to ground gradings and floodlights were not mentioned, largely because this was very much a Step five meeting, even if the review heading said Step 5/6.

 

Whilst I believe that the FA will try to force this, or a similar structure through, the tone of the meeting was very conciliatory and they really did seem open to suggestions. One of which was to keep the structure as it was but relegate three teams from each step four league. However, it was said that whilst three down may be an option in the future (and I can confirm Whitelaw's comments that no concession was given on this subject at the meeting) the structure needed to go from 14 DIVISIONS to 12 first.

 

I put that in capitals because it is all about having 12 22 team divisions and not 14 divisions. To a certain extent they've thrown all the Step five clubs on the floor and picked them up in what appears to be the best and fairest way that they can. Inevitably people will look at the two furthest clubs apart and throw a big mileage out, but someone will always lose.

 

As the Reading Town Chairman said yesterday, teams at Step Five should be ambitious, and if they are, then at step four there would be more travelling anyway. I suggested sugaring this pill with the two promotion places, and although it may not come about until 2014/15 I believe that it has to and will happen because so many clubs want it.

 

People moaned about travel costs and it should be pointed out that of all 14 leagues we have the smallest average journey of 46 miles per game. In Epsom's suggested new division the London SW it would rise to 53, still the smallest, but other areas did not fare so well.

 

No clubs with an F grade would be relegated and currently there are 287 at Step five going into 264, so divisions may be as high as 25 in some areas for a season or two although promotion from step 6 will continue while the divisions align to 22 each.

 

 

 

 

 

Mike Appleby mentioned, quite validly I thought (but some felt he was being flippant) that the first club he looked at recently of those who applied for step four advised travel costs of £3750 but player costs of £66k. While that may have been an exception, I would be surprised if any club exceeds their playing budget with their travel budget unless they are totally and completely amateur. Apologies if I'm wrong, but certainly the more ambitious ones wouldn't.

 

STEP 5 club - Player costs £66k plus travel costs (only) £3750 so lets say a round figure of £70k thats £7777 a month over a 9 month football season, which equates to @ £1945.00 per week for a STEP 5 club !!!

 

NOW ! £66k for players equates to £1835.00 per week over a 9 month football season/period, I wonder who that team is ???

 

 

 

 

In summary, I thought the new idea was refreshing and long overdue. The FA has finally grasped the nettle and should be commended for at least trying. That said I sympathise with clubs like Shoreham that would have some large journeys. I think it is workable but the extra costs must have associated reward and in the absence of a "balloon payment" ludicrously suggested by the guy at Peacehaven, moments after he said they were applying for Step Four, a second promotion place is all we can hope to achieve.

 

Finally I must advise that the FA were very keen to stress at every opportunity that this is just a suggestion and nowhere near a proposal at this stage. Also with two more promotions and relegations in our area before this is confirmed, it is hard to do much more than they have suggested at present. The FA know they can get a majority on this, but in their view clearly 200 clubs in favour is nowhere near enough. They really want 250 in my opinion.

 

If clubs are not happy, clubs could choose to self-relegate themselves to Step 6, and if there were a significant amount then this may cause trouble as the FA need 264 really for this to work. However, be under no illusion, the FA will probably go ahead even if there are less clubs, which might involve smaller divisions to start with, or many extra step six clubs, although many of those curently in step six may get invited to take the "self-relegatees" place, which in our area might well result in the travel distances going down further, as we have many step 6 clubs that could go up with a minimal amount of work.

 

I shall log on here at about 4.30 today, so if you have any other questions, fire away and I'll try to answer them.

[Krooner]

Sorry Smudge I seem to be missing the point then. So the petition was to get an extra promotion place with immediate effect ?

 

I misunderstood I thought it was to get the FA to take the thought seriously and factor it in for future propsals. As it has been clearly stated here it is possibly up for discussion so already pressure is being made to bear. A petition could be the next step to help that process.

[Smudge]

Kroons,possibly Camberley will get promoted by 2014,the F.A. spokeperson alledgely said,Now if he had said CAMBERLEY WILL GET PROMOTED IN 2014 that would be a different matter.Or maybe Farnborough could possibly pay Eagle Radio the debt owed,rather than WILL PAY the debt owed.Get it now!!!!!

[Krooner]

Nope cos you have just changed what you are saying !!!