Hornchurch expectations part 2

[Urchins]

With regards to the contents of the letter, its a subject thats been discussed on a number of occasions by the council, and if Hornchurch want to progress, as I hope you do, it may be the only solution.

 

It may well be, but why should Romford be involved ? - you have been given your own patch of land. Why do you think the council is obliged to help you out any further ?

[missunderstood]

With regards to the contents of the letter, its a subject thats been discussed on a number of occasions by the council, and if Hornchurch want to progress, as I hope you do, it may be the only solution.

 

It may well be, but why should Romford be involved ? - you have been given your own patch of land. Why do you think the council is obliged to help you out any further ?

The fact of the matter is that if Romford wanted a ground-share all negotiations would be between Romford and the LBH, with Hornchurch actually having very little say in the matter. Hornchurch could however withhold there blessing with the Rymans League, which would mean both clubs being forced to play in the ESL with no hope of promotion.

 

I have never thought that the council should help us out financially, but the fact remains that the stadium is owned by Havering council tax payers, and it is not there for the exclusive use of one (or two) organizations, and by law we have as much right to use it as anyone else, if we so wish.

 

Another interesting fact that if anyone wishes to delve into the Havering Council website and find the legal document entitled Westlands Playing Fields Forms A and B, they will discover that one of the clauses states that RFC must make the stadium available to any other sports club that wishes to use it, even though RFC would have raised the money to build it without any help from the council whatsoever.

Edited November 28, 2011 by missunderstood

[Urchins]

With regards to the contents of the letter, its a subject thats been discussed on a number of occasions by the council, and if Hornchurch want to progress, as I hope you do, it may be the only solution.

 

It may well be, but why should Romford be involved ? - you have been given your own patch of land. Why do you think the council is obliged to help you out any further ?

The fact of the matter is that if Romford wanted a ground-share all negotiations would be between Romford and the LBH, with Hornchurch actually having very little say in the matter. Hornchurch could however withhold there blessing with the Rymans League, which would mean both clubs being forced to play in the ESL with no hope of promotion.

 

I have never thought that the council should help us out financially, but the fact remains that the stadium is owned by Havering council tax payers, and it is not there for the exclusive use of one (or two) organizations, and by law we have as much right to use it as anyone else, if we so wish.

 

Another interesting fact that if anyone wishes to delve into the Havering Council website and find the legal document entitled Westlands Playing Fields Forms A and B, they will discover that one of the clauses states that RFC must make the stadium available to any other sports club that wishes to use it, even though RFC would have raised the money to build it without any help from the council whatsoever.

 

I'm not sure you understand the point I am trying to make. The council have given you some land to use as a Stadium. Why should they waste their time negotiating with you to find you another place to play ?

 

The council may not have given you a wedge of cash, but they have given you a couple of acres of land presumably with planning permission. If that's not helping you out financially then I don't know what is.

[Eastside Urchin]

Indeed rob.

Havering council may hold negotiations with Romford and Hornchurch may well complain,its not in our best interests to have Romford at the stadium,last time was a dissaster and to add to that our pitch just wouldn't hold up to around 70 games a season plus on it.

I don't believe that a groundshare could work with the athletics club remaining tenants,monday,wednesday,friday and sunday games would be out of the question,where on earth do you think all these games are going to be played.It would probably end up being the downfall of both clubs.

Obviously if a brand spanking new pitch was made available by romford and the upkeep of it was paid for then i would think that AFCH may consider it but at the moment both clubs wouldn't be able to fulfill their fixtures every season

[missunderstood]

With regards to the contents of the letter, its a subject thats been discussed on a number of occasions by the council, and if Hornchurch want to progress, as I hope you do, it may be the only solution.

 

It may well be, but why should Romford be involved ? - you have been given your own patch of land. Why do you think the council is obliged to help you out any further ?

The fact of the matter is that if Romford wanted a ground-share all negotiations would be between Romford and the LBH, with Hornchurch actually having very little say in the matter. Hornchurch could however withhold there blessing with the Rymans League, which would mean both clubs being forced to play in the ESL with no hope of promotion.

 

I have never thought that the council should help us out financially, but the fact remains that the stadium is owned by Havering council tax payers, and it is not there for the exclusive use of one (or two) organizations, and by law we have as much right to use it as anyone else, if we so wish.

 

Another interesting fact that if anyone wishes to delve into the Havering Council website and find the legal document entitled Westlands Playing Fields Forms A and B, they will discover that one of the clauses states that RFC must make the stadium available to any other sports club that wishes to use it, even though RFC would have raised the money to build it without any help from the council whatsoever.

 

I'm not sure you understand the point I am trying to make. The council have given you some land to use as a Stadium. Why should they waste their time negotiating with you to find you another place to play ?

 

The council may not have given you a wedge of cash, but they have given you a couple of acres of land presumably with planning permission. If that's not helping you out financially then I don't know what is.

The council didn't give us a couple of acres of land, but offered it to the club to build a stadium, without a lease but a licencing agreement the same as the one Hornchurch have. The club would then have to pay the appropriate rent for the land. The very expensive planning consent was paid for by the club at the market rate. If the stadium gets built the local community will have a valuable asset paid for, and maintained by RFC at no cost whatsoever to Havering council tax payers. In the happy event of RFC outgrowing the stadium, and moving somewhere else in the borough, the club would have to return the land to its original state, at our own expence.

 

As all local authorities have a legal obligation to maximise revenue from its assets, and all departments at the town hall have revenue raising targets to meet, its unlikely the council would consider entering into negotiations that should not take more than a few hours, a waste of time.

Edited November 28, 2011 by missunderstood

[Hasbeen]

With regards to the contents of the letter, its a subject thats been discussed on a number of occasions by the council, and if Hornchurch want to progress, as I hope you do, it may be the only solution.

 

It may well be, but why should Romford be involved ? - you have been given your own patch of land. Why do you think the council is obliged to help you out any further ?

The fact of the matter is that if Romford wanted a ground-share all negotiations would be between Romford and the LBH, with Hornchurch actually having very little say in the matter. Hornchurch could however withhold there blessing with the Rymans League, which would mean both clubs being forced to play in the ESL with no hope of promotion.

 

I have never thought that the council should help us out financially, but the fact remains that the stadium is owned by Havering council tax payers, and it is not there for the exclusive use of one (or two) organizations, and by law we have as much right to use it as anyone else, if we so wish.

 

Another interesting fact that if anyone wishes to delve into the Havering Council website and find the legal document entitled Westlands Playing Fields Forms A and B, they will discover that one of the clauses states that RFC must make the stadium available to any other sports club that wishes to use it, even though RFC would have raised the money to build it without any help from the council whatsoever.

 

I'm not sure you understand the point I am trying to make. The council have given you some land to use as a Stadium. Why should they waste their time negotiating with you to find you another place to play ?

 

The council may not have given you a wedge of cash, but they have given you a couple of acres of land presumably with planning permission. If that's not helping you out financially then I don't know what is.

The council didn't give us a couple of acres of land, but offered it to the club to build a stadium, without a lease but a licencing agreement the same as the one Hornchurch have. The club would then have to pay the appropriate rent for the land. The very expensive planning consent was paid for by the club at the market rate. If the stadium gets built the local community will have a valuable asset paid for, and maintained by RFC at no cost whatsoever to Havering council tax payers.

 

As all local authorities have a legal obligation to maximise revenue from its assets, and all departments at the town hall have revenue raising targets to meet, its unlikely the council would consider entering into negotiations that should not take more than a few hours, a waste of time.

 

 

Argh old fencepanel starting to panic and straw clutch now as their project seems to have stalled Here's an idea as a gesture of good will why don't your club donate half of the Boro Bonanza fund to us? One minute he is all nicey nicey and talking about making friends with us and then the true vitriole comes out and he starts mentioning about us having little say in a groundshare. I was starting to warm to the idea of a groundshare but I seems to have changed my mind' Love it

[Urchins]

The council didn't give us a couple of acres of land, but offered it to the club to build a stadium, without a lease but a licencing agreement the same as the one Hornchurch have. The club would then have to pay the appropriate rent for the land. The very expensive planning consent was paid for by the club at the market rate. If the stadium gets built the local community will have a valuable asset paid for, and maintained by RFC at no cost whatsoever to Havering council tax payers. In the happy event of RFC outgrowing the stadium, and moving somewhere else in the borough, the club would have to return the land to its original state, at our own expence.

 

As all local authorities have a legal obligation to maximise revenue from its assets, and all departments at the town hall have revenue raising targets to meet, its unlikely the council would consider entering into negotiations that should not take more than a few hours, a waste of time.

 

Sigh....

 

Whether you have been given the land or whether it has been leased to you, it has negated the need for you to purchase a piece of land. Thus it is 'helping you out financially'.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Urchins

[missunderstood]

With regards to the contents of the letter, its a subject thats been discussed on a number of occasions by the council, and if Hornchurch want to progress, as I hope you do, it may be the only solution.

 

It may well be, but why should Romford be involved ? - you have been given your own patch of land. Why do you think the council is obliged to help you out any further ?

The fact of the matter is that if Romford wanted a ground-share all negotiations would be between Romford and the LBH, with Hornchurch actually having very little say in the matter. Hornchurch could however withhold there blessing with the Rymans League, which would mean both clubs being forced to play in the ESL with no hope of promotion.

 

I have never thought that the council should help us out financially, but the fact remains that the stadium is owned by Havering council tax payers, and it is not there for the exclusive use of one (or two) organizations, and by law we have as much right to use it as anyone else, if we so wish.

 

Another interesting fact that if anyone wishes to delve into the Havering Council website and find the legal document entitled Westlands Playing Fields Forms A and B, they will discover that one of the clauses states that RFC must make the stadium available to any other sports club that wishes to use it, even though RFC would have raised the money to build it without any help from the council whatsoever.

 

I'm not sure you understand the point I am trying to make. The council have given you some land to use as a Stadium. Why should they waste their time negotiating with you to find you another place to play ?

 

The council may not have given you a wedge of cash, but they have given you a couple of acres of land presumably with planning permission. If that's not helping you out financially then I don't know what is.

The council didn't give us a couple of acres of land, but offered it to the club to build a stadium, without a lease but a licencing agreement the same as the one Hornchurch have. The club would then have to pay the appropriate rent for the land. The very expensive planning consent was paid for by the club at the market rate. If the stadium gets built the local community will have a valuable asset paid for, and maintained by RFC at no cost whatsoever to Havering council tax payers.

 

As all local authorities have a legal obligation to maximise revenue from its assets, and all departments at the town hall have revenue raising targets to meet, its unlikely the council would consider entering into negotiations that should not take more than a few hours, a waste of time.

 

 

Argh old fencepanel starting to panic and straw clutch now as their project seems to have stalled Here's an idea as a gesture of good will why don't your club donate half of the Boro Bonanza fund to us? One minute he is all nicey nicey and talking about making friends with us and then the true vitriole comes out and he starts mentioning about us having little say in a groundshare. I was starting to warm to the idea of a groundshare but I seems to have changed my mind' Love it

No vitriole intended, just stateing technical facts and the reality of the situation if it ever arises.

[Eastside Urchin]

They might have obligations to maximise their assets but we all know that this doesn't always happen.

Personally Alan,I think you are fighting a losing battle.

If the council decided to build a brand spanking new ground in the middle of Hornchurch (say brettons or around wingletyle lane for example),made it 5'000 capacity with all mod cons for both clubs to use,within reach for both clubs then I and the majority would probably be up for it.But we all know that this probably won't happen.Your best chance is to get wetlands up and running,it may mean de sizing any plans you have but that's what you should do.It's been nearly 2 years I believe since you got the ok and it doesn't seem like anything is happening.

While the ground is there at Westlands,it is not something that would interest Hornchurch,it's too far away from our traditional home,Aveley would probably be nearer to us to be honest.

[Hasbeen]

For me the chameleons posts actually help as they focus the mind. I wasn't sure but am totaly against any form of groundshare.....voluntary or enforced

[missunderstood]

For me the chameleons posts actually help as they focus the mind. I wasn't sure but am totaly against any form of groundshare.....voluntary or enforced

I Suppose at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what either of us think. If RFC and LBH want it to happen, it happens. Last week I sent Rob a PM with ideas to raise money, so I think you may have got my motives in all this completely wrong.

[Hasbeen]

For me the chameleons posts actually help as they focus the mind. I wasn't sure but am totaly against any form of groundshare.....voluntary or enforced

I Suppose at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what either of us think. If RFC and LBH want it to happen, it happens. Last week I sent Rob a PM with ideas to raise money, so I think you may have got my motives in all this completely wrong.

 

 

My limited inteligence aside I understand totally your motives and fortunately so do others

[Eastside Urchin]

To be honest,I do think that Alan isn't trying to stir things.I think he genuinely believes his way is the way forward,but I think we all know that at the moment,selling Bridge Avenue and getting the Council to build a purpose built football stadium for the use of both clubs is just a dream in his and a few others heads.It simply isn't going to happen in the current climate and at the moment it is something that interests neither club.

I do believe however that if a purpose built stadium on the boundaries of Hornchurch/Romford was a viable option then both clubs would probably jump at the chance.

However,let's look at the position of both of our clubs

AFC Hornchurch-riding high in the Ryman Prem,distinct possibility they could be conference south next season.The Conference would then be in reach and the ground at the moment,may struggle to host Conference games,although I do believe that it could be done.Football League would be the next level and our ground would probably not be given ground grading but I may be wrong,however,I don't see us making the football league any time soon so it's not really an option.Maybe if we got to the Conference we could evaluate then but really not worth thinking about until we at least establish ourselves in the Conference South.

 

Romford FC- Mid table,possible play off candidates for Ryman One North.A long way off the above prognosis,especially with crowds around the 100 mark.Although currently playing 8 miles from Romford which obviously hinders them.Have permission for a new ground at westlands but are struggling to raise funds but need to get back into the borough.For some Romford fans groundsharing at Hornchurch would obviously benefit the club but not sure it would a great deal.Their aim should be to get back to the Romford area,do not have the same ground grading issues as we would if we get up this season.

[cup of tea]

Can't see the council buying both clubs a new stadium to be honest - be good if they did.

[missunderstood]

To be honest,I do think that Alan isn't trying to stir things.I think he genuinely believes his way is the way forward,but I think we all know that at the moment,selling Bridge Avenue and getting the Council to build a purpose built football stadium for the use of both clubs is just a dream in his and a few others heads.It simply isn't going to happen in the current climate and at the moment it is something that interests neither club.

I do believe however that if a purpose built stadium on the boundaries of Hornchurch/Romford was a viable option then both clubs would probably jump at the chance.

However,let's look at the position of both of our clubs

AFC Hornchurch-riding high in the Ryman Prem,distinct possibility they could be conference south next season.The Conference would then be in reach and the ground at the moment,may struggle to host Conference games,although I do believe that it could be done.Football League would be the next level and our ground would probably not be given ground grading but I may be wrong,however,I don't see us making the football league any time soon so it's not really an option.Maybe if we got to the Conference we could evaluate then but really not worth thinking about until we at least establish ourselves in the Conference South.

 

Romford FC- Mid table,possible play off candidates for Ryman One North.A long way off the above prognosis,especially with crowds around the 100 mark.Although currently playing 8 miles from Romford which obviously hinders them.Have permission for a new ground at westlands but are struggling to raise funds but need to get back into the borough.For some Romford fans groundsharing at Hornchurch would obviously benefit the club but not sure it would a great deal.Their aim should be to get back to the Romford area,do not have the same ground grading issues as we would if we get up this season.

Well thought out post Rob, and TBH not a great deal to disagree with. In my opinion though Bridge Avenue could never be brought up to Conference National standard because raising the money to pay for all the work needed could well prove harder than you could ever possibly imagine, and the specifications that would be demanded by LBH before planning consent was given, could well make it impossible. I hope I'm wrong though.

 

Your right when you say i genuinely believe its in the best interests of both clubs, but I have always thought it would be a medium term project, rather than a short term fix.

[Eastside Urchin]

I believe that ground grading would be ok for Conference National,ok the ground is not ideal for Conference Football but to be honest it has the basics.

We would need a new toilet facility for the away fans,but there is space.

We would need a capacity of 4'000 but I did read somewhere (think it was the NLP a while ago)that they would allow a year or two for improvements to be bought upto scratch.

The use of Roll on Roll off stands are fine for the likes of Chelmsford & even Brightons old ground and while expensive,can be hired to start with for a reasonably cheap fee.

If we were to go up to conference South,this would increase our earning potential as a club,gates would go up,our wage bill wouldn't have to neccesarily go up much to compete although to go up again it obviously would.

Conference south sides tend to get bigger games against league opposition in Fa cup or trophy due to the lateness they enter both competitions,thus providing extra revenue most years.

Segregation would not be an issue,especially with a roll on roll of stand,which there is plenty of space for behind the windmill end.If not we have a main terrace,the eastside,this could quite easily be segregated if needed.

While our ground is not always viewed as ideal by some,it is no different from grounds like Chelmsford in layout and therefore no different to adapt.

[Hasbeen]

I guess my cynicism comes from comments like the one below posted by Mr Fence on the Romford forum this summer,

 

'Hornchurch stadium belongs to the residents of Havering and we have just as much right to play there as AFCH,and Phil's right when he asks why we should subsidise another football club through our council tax'

 

It the issue of being forced to groundshare that leaves a bad taste for me

Edited November 29, 2011 by Hasbeen

[Eastside Urchin]

I would always be opposed to a groundshare at bridge Avenue,in it's present form,with the athletics club being there it's just not feasible,the pitch for a start wouldn't hold up to the games,when there is fixture congestion at the tail end of the season,when would the games be played? You can't play Monday's & Wednesday's it's just not doable I am afraid.

If the athletics club suddenly pulled out and Romford could stump up for a new pitch of the same standard as Hastings,a new bar and could pay 50% towards rates,lighting,ground improvements to take it up to minimum conference standard then I may think about it

[obis]

Same old, same old. Romford should either put up or shut up!

 

I've said before in this forum that one or two clubs will go to the wall before long, certainly in their current format. I believe that clubs without their own ground and playing outside their own catchment area are dying a slow death.

 

Good morning everyone

Edited November 29, 2011 by obis

[obis]

Lower non league is like the newspapers, finding it difficult to attract new customers whilst their current subscribers are gradually diminishing. Because they offer nothing new, and have no affinity to their following.

 

We need to learn from this. Come on all you Urchins.

Edited November 29, 2011 by obis