SHOULD WE ALL SUPPORT COMRADE RHODES ?

[missunderstood]

Do other forum users agree with me that we should support Rhodes and all the other public service employees when they strike on the 30th November as they attempt to defend their pensions from being slashed by a vicious nasty right wing government?

[RalphC]

No way.

 

Why should a group of people who cannot be bothered to work and are trying to hold the country to ransom be supported.

 

Sack them all!

 

(if that does not anger some people, not sure what will )

[Loose]

Cliff needs counselling, he deserves our support in that.

 

Hadn't heard that the Civil Service were taking part in this strike, last I heard they were being farmed out to check passports and perform strip searches at airports and ports, covering Border Agency staff going on strike, there Cliffy, something to look forward to.

 

It's a hard call, these peoples pensions are at risk because their investment funds just haven't performed as well as projected and people are living longer so the "pension fund" is struggling not to put an increased burden of debt on younger generations, that would fail eventually. The Govt. have said that the new plans would not affect anyone within ten years of their "normal/original" retirement date so perhaps like the rest of the working population that gives others the time to start tucking a bit more away. There's no free rides, never have been and there's a worldwide recession presently. I don't believe the political mouthpieces who are claiming that the strike will cause doom and destruction but they would say that anyway. On balance though if their union has held a legal vote and given the instruction then you cannot blame them and they should not be vilified.

[RalphC]

Sadly these pension changes need to happen, otherwise we will become another Greece.

 

The problem is for any women approcahing retirement their pension and benefits will be delayed by 5 years.

 

They cannot strike over the matter, so why shoudl anyone else, when the country has little or no choice?

 

This woud have happened with any party in power - it had to at some point.

[Horace]

Just a word in support of Rhodes! Civil Service pay is sh1te in relation to similar responsibility outside, and pay bargaining has traditionally included an element deducted from comparison with outside pay to take account of the "free" pension.

 

I have a friend, who presents cases in court on behalf of the Home Office against illegal immigrants etc whom they wish to deport. She earns about £30K a year. She is opposed on most occasions by a barrister on around 10 times her salary. She was recently battered by a very large West Indian man who didn't like the fact that he was to be deported ! Fat cat Civil Servant?

 

The Government, of whatever persuasion, has never built up a kitty to pay future pension commitments (nor has it actually saved your Premium Bond money for you!).

 

As to the comment about Civil Servants not striking - are not Customs Officers Civil Servants?

[Loose]

There are several different unions Horace and not all of them are taking strike action. With regards their covering Border Agency staff (I didn't mention Customs - another branch altogether) this story was on the Beeb website yesterday.

 

What have salaries got to do with the discussion? I thought they were taking industrial action over pensions?

[missunderstood]

The strikes are also about working longer, and paying more for what will certainly be a smaller pension. I don't suppose any sane person would be happy about that.

 

IMO if we really was "all in it together" and MPs, fat-cat directors and bankers took a proportionate share of the pain, then perhaps the strikes could be considered to be unreasonable. As it stands the widening inequality between rich and poor makes strikes and disruption inevitable.

[Big J R]

As a life-member of UNISON, my views should be obvious.

 

HOWEVER................... as a RETIRED member, I and thousands of other retired members are and were barred from voting under Government rules.

 

I think you'll find that that speaks volumes about HMG's fears !!!

[Eastside Urchin]

Fckng striking scumbags,let's fck the country up more than it already is.We are already in a recession so let's make matters worse.

People should learn to save instead of worrying what they are going to get from a government that simply can't afford to pay an ageing population the rates they have been.

As for working longer,tough

[Loose]

The strikes are also about working longer, and paying more for what will certainly be a smaller pension. I don't suppose any sane person would be happy about that.

 

IMO if we really was "all in it together" and MPs, fat-cat directors and bankers took a proportionate share of the pain, then perhaps the strikes could be considered to be unreasonable. As it stands the widening inequality between rich and poor makes strikes and disruption inevitable.

Well I think that first of all we need to establish whether "Comrade Rhodes" needs supporting during this day of action since as far as I am not aware of them being called out on strike by any of their union, the PCS being one of the main, so take a look at their website - no announcements that I can see.... Maybe he "Big Mandarin" can give us the horses mouth version.

 

Secondly I think we have all our priorities mixed up in this country, by which I mean those public service workers like nurse, firemen, police and army (if you can add them?) are vastly underpaid and if we are saying that compared with their counterparts in the private sector they are vastly underpaid then why are we criticising wealth makers in this country when we want everyone to be on a par?

 

The people you should look at are for example my GP, works a 3 and 1/2 day week, is on £200k a year and takes twelve weeks holiday annually. Civil servants average £22,500 per year but taking into account that the senior civil service pay grades start at £57k we can imagine they are not exactly struggling.

 

Its a fu*ked up system and I'd sooner start paying frontline services staff more than my MP. I don't not sympathise with civil servants but they make up barely 10% of all public sector workers. As a caveat though if I'd worked in my previous employment and missed all my targets, overspent my budgets etc I'd be on the breadline, these civil servants need to start saving the country some money somewhere for a change!!!

[Eastside Urchin]

Fatcats etc do not get rich by mistake,they usually do it through hard work and everyone has a chance to do the same.While I agree that nurses etc should be getting more for the services they provide,they do the job to help people not because it's well paid.Those that earn fortunes do so through long hours and hard work and because they are motivated maybe by greed but money,I see nothing wrong with that in all honesty

[missunderstood]

Fatcats etc do not get rich by mistake,they usually do it through hard work and everyone has a chance to do the same.While I agree that nurses etc should be getting more for the services they provide,they do the job to help people not because it's well paid.Those that earn fortunes do so through long hours and hard work and because they are motivated maybe by greed but money,I see nothing wrong with that in all honesty

Lots of people work hard and are forced to work long hours, and yet still exist below the poverty line, and with no fat cat pension to look forward to in their old age.

 

The people that earn vastly inflated salaries mainly do so because they control the ways and means of deciding their own wages, unlike the more worthy members of society who mostly have to rely on collective bargaining with the very same people that control the purse strings and who don't have to worry about making the choice of paying their fuel bills or eating, or having a worry free dignified retirement.

Edited November 25, 2011 by missunderstood

[Eastside Urchin]

Many of those who live around the poverty line are those that fcked about at school,couldn't be bothered etc etc,many make no attempt whatsoever to better themselves.

Let's not kid ourselves here,there's poverty uk style and poverty like you get in Africa etc,two completely different things and poverty in this country is not that bad tbh,many who claim to exist on or below the poverty line spend what little money they have on booze,fags etc and perhaps those who can't afford kids should actually not have them until they can afford them because this country can't keep paying for young ladies who cannot keep their legs shut

[missunderstood]

perhaps those who can't afford kids should actually not have them until they can afford them because this country can't keep paying for young ladies who cannot keep their legs shut

Many responsible adults become the head of single parent families for a variety of reasons including bereavement, and relationship breakdowns caused by poverty. the resulting children are the innocent victims and should never be penalised otherwise we will have another wasted generation with no hope or aspirations to lead a decent life and become valued members of society.

 

Education is the key to alleviating poverty and yet this spiteful government are trying their hardest to destroy the future financial security of the very people who provide the solutions.

[Loose]

Fatcats etc do not get rich by mistake,they usually do it through hard work and everyone has a chance to do the same.While I agree that nurses etc should be getting more for the services they provide,they do the job to help people not because it's well paid.Those that earn fortunes do so through long hours and hard work and because they are motivated maybe by greed but money,I see nothing wrong with that in all honesty

Lots of people work hard and are forced to work long hours, and yet still exist below the poverty line, and with no fat cat pension to look forward to in their old age.

 

The people that earn vastly inflated salaries mainly do so because they control the ways and means of deciding their own wages, unlike the more worthy members of society who mostly have to rely on collective bargaining with the very same people that control the purse strings and who don't have to worry about making the choice of paying their fuel bills or eating, or having a worry free dignified retirement.

 

The people who earn these "vastly inflated" salaries that you talk of probably do so because their businesses perform at a level that allows them to, either that or the shareholders that they report to approve of the situation. If they own their own businesses then it is THEIR money to decide what they do with - they've made a personal investment either in terms of money, skills, education, time and sacrifices that the average employee who turns up and is contracted to do their hours and then go home with none of the employers concerns on their minds and would have no concept of nor need to - and this can only happen if the employers are paying their proportionate taxes, corporation tax, employee PAYE, employers national insurance contributions, provide pension schemes, health and safety in the workplace, public & private liability insurances, employee salaries, act as a tax collector for the government in paying VAT etc etc. They can choose to pay their employees the going rate or their employees can take whatever transferable skills along with whatever at times costly training and industry gained (and paid for by the employer) qualifications elsewhere if they can do better and that is their choice alone. No amount of whining or grizzling, stamping your feet will change that within a Free Market.

 

Something more relevant for this forum would be looking at professional sports people, in particular our top flight footballers that only earn these "vastly inflated" salaries because we, the punters allow ourselves to, being led by the noses to pay Sky subscriptions, buy merchandise for ourselves, the kiddies, the cat and the world and then pay £40 - £70 for ninety minutes of entertainment, That is one Fu*ked up system! TV actors demanding $8 million dollars an episode FFS! Hollywood stars who don't get out of bed to make a film for less than $30m a picture! Bankers who can buy your investments at breakfast, sell it by lunchtime for ten times what they paid for them and leave you without a pension, savings, a holiday or a home by teatime and earn themselves a fat bonus in the ££££millions. And why? Because You, Me, Everyone else pays these people for the right to squander our money, thats the "Fat Cats" you mean surely? lol.

 

Public sector workers choose where they work - the same as anyone and as it's been pointed out they don't supposedly all choose to do it for the money. It's a choice FFS. If they want a dignified retirement then they have to find a way to pay for it, which we all do.

[Eastside Urchin]

Alan,yes many people end up as single parents for many reasons,but it doesn't change the fact that many either choose to have kids when they know they can't afford them or even more worrying choose to have kids because they believe they will provide money for the parents.

In an ideal world we would all live nice lives with everyone happy and no one in poverty but we don't live in an ideal world,we live in a world that is now approaching 10 billion people and the perfect situation is going further and further away.

Some will be wealthy and some will not,you take your chance in life and each person has a chance to make their lot better for themselves and their family,some choose to do it legally some don't but each person can in theory change their life for the better,majority choose not to though

[Rhodes]

Well I think that first of all we need to establish whether Comrade Rhodes needs supporting during this day of action

I made a post earlier which wasn't published so how on earth am I able to interact. I'm not a member of a Union and am proud to work for Her Majesty's Government, money isn't everything and I'm not motivated by it unlike some.

[Loose]

Well there we go, no support needed for Rhodes who obviously is not a "comrade" since he is not a member of a union.

 

I've been a member of a union since I was 17, can I have some instead lol?

[missunderstood]

Fatcats etc do not get rich by mistake,they usually do it through hard work and everyone has a chance to do the same.While I agree that nurses etc should be getting more for the services they provide,they do the job to help people not because it's well paid.Those that earn fortunes do so through long hours and hard work and because they are motivated maybe by greed but money,I see nothing wrong with that in all honesty

Lots of people work hard and are forced to work long hours, and yet still exist below the poverty line, and with no fat cat pension to look forward to in their old age.

 

The people that earn vastly inflated salaries mainly do so because they control the ways and means of deciding their own wages, unlike the more worthy members of society who mostly have to rely on collective bargaining with the very same people that control the purse strings and who don't have to worry about making the choice of paying their fuel bills or eating, or having a worry free dignified retirement.

 

The people who earn these "vastly inflated" salaries that you talk of probably do so because their businesses perform at a level that allows them to, either that or the shareholders that they report to approve of the situation. If they own their own businesses then it is THEIR money to decide what they do with - they've made a personal investment either in terms of money, skills, education, time and sacrifices that the average employee who turns up and is contracted to do their hours and then go home with none of the employers concerns on their minds and would have no concept of nor need to - and this can only happen if the employers are paying their proportionate taxes, corporation tax, employee PAYE, employers national insurance contributions, provide pension schemes, health and safety in the workplace, public & private liability insurances, employee salaries, act as a tax collector for the government in paying VAT etc etc. They can choose to pay their employees the going rate or their employees can take whatever transferable skills along with whatever at times costly training and industry gained (and paid for by the employer) qualifications elsewhere if they can do better and that is their choice alone. No amount of whining or grizzling, stamping your feet will change that within a Free Market.

 

Something more relevant for this forum would be looking at professional sports people, in particular our top flight footballers that only earn these "vastly inflated" salaries because we, the punters allow ourselves to, being led by the noses to pay Sky subscriptions, buy merchandise for ourselves, the kiddies, the cat and the world and then pay £40 - £70 for ninety minutes of entertainment, That is one Fu*ked up system! TV actors demanding $8 million dollars an episode FFS! Hollywood stars who don't get out of bed to make a film for less than $30m a picture! Bankers who can buy your investments at breakfast, sell it by lunchtime for ten times what they paid for them and leave you without a pension, savings, a holiday or a home by teatime and earn themselves a fat bonus in the ££££millions. And why? Because You, Me, Everyone else pays these people for the right to squander our money, thats the "Fat Cats" you mean surely? lol.

 

Public sector workers choose where they work - the same as anyone and as it's been pointed out they don't supposedly all choose to do it for the money. It's a choice FFS. If they want a dignified retirement then they have to find a way to pay for it, which we all do.

I don't think its fair to suggest public sector workers can realistically choose where they work as there are very few opportunities for retraining, or career changes in the present economic climate. Teachers, nurses, social workers, etc have spent years gaining the necessary qualifications to practice in their chosen profession, knowing that the financial rewards are not great, but they took the decision to make huge financial sacrifices because their rewards are job satisfaction, and a reasonable final salary pension when they reach retirement age. To take that away from them and destroy all their dreams, and turning their life time financial planning into a mockery, is totally immoral and they deserve all the support the public can give them.

[Rhodes]

Loosely - The Unions have been the ruin of this once proud Nation so you being a member since the tender age of seventeen says it all about you, I hope you're proud of yourself