Are men becoming neutered

[Steph]

Apologies for this diatribe. It is not my intention to offend anybody and this is up for discussion in an orderly and friendly manner. I have posted because of the criticism of a loyal Enfield fan whose language is disgusting but I have never heard him make homophobic or racist remarks.

 

In particular a former referee has expressed distaste at the term F****** c***** aimed at a ref. I consider it cowardly in the extreme for someone to criticise an individual when that individual has no right of reply. But it happens all the time.

 

I was in court yesterday as an expert witness. I was not called and the case has been adjourned until March. What has this got to do with the language of our fan, I admit I have got sidetracked a la Lawrence Stern (Tristam Shandy). However the expert employed by the other side and I had come to an agreed position which had been posted to the relevant solicitors in good time - early last year. However our agreed position had not been placed in the trial bundle and therefore not read by counsel or the judge. If anyone has gone to a trial at county court they will know that it starts with pleadings on matters of law and how the trial is to be conducted. We, as experts, were roundly criticised by both sides in the trial and by the judge! We had no right of reply as the officers of the court can say what they damn well like and we the experts, claimants and defendents, on whose behalf justice is dispensed, sit around like spare parts at a funeral. I merely highlight this fact to emphasise that we are all placed in situations which we may not like and it is very unsettling.

 

Now to get back to my opening remarks. Like my local hostelry I consider that my place on the terraces is a man's place where women can attend. I consider that I am watching a man's game which women can play. I want it to remain a man's game and if women dont like it they dont have to come to see it. It would be interesting to note how many women attended the gladatorial games in ancient Rome. As I understand it there were no women fighters or at least they have not been depicted in Roman Art. We see no women athletes at the greek olympics. (I will bow to the greater knowledge of an historian if my stated facts are contradicted). Indeed the "mythical" amazonian women who cut off their right breast in order to draw a bow are considered to be extraordinary.

 

I now see players, such as Andy Jones and Rudi Hall, getting sent off for tackles which Alf Darcy would have laughed at. Who hasn't seen the blood baths at Lower Mead or Underhill 40 or so years ago. But in those days we didn't see shirt pulling or players feigning injury to get a player sent off. When players fought - they fought not the handbags we get now.

 

As for the language used above. It seems that not many of us remember when Ronnie Howell came to play for Town. Or as a pupil of one of the local Edmonton schools I can recall clearly what the Latymer Loonies called the pupils from the other Edmonton school.

 

I dont use bad language at a football match - or at least try not to - I dont like to hear it but if I do hear it I consider that it is a fault in me if I am offended and not in the perpetrator. I was taught that swearing was a mark of a poor vocabulary and I therefore consider that the swearer does not have the benefit of the education that I had. Rather than have a go at a loyal fan why dont we get our refs to do something about the shirt pulling, obstruction and the bad acting.

 

There that has got my thoughts on the matter of my chest and I feel better for it.

[Ian_W]

Whilst I agree, until refs start booking players and management for using such language with zero tolerance, you can hardly blame people watching from using the same.

 

You will rarely see people in blazers using such language, because they are representing the club - why do players and management staff not think the same?

[townerboy]

Or as a pupil of one of the local Edmonton schools I can recall clearly what the Latymer Loonies called the pupils from the other Edmonton school.

 

whats that supposed to mean?

[Arkwright]

There was a very high proportion of women who attended gladatorial "shows" in the Roman Empire. Gladiators were the superstars/sex symbols of the day (Bottles of their sweat brought a high price as an aphrodisiac) & they were sometimes used by rich Roman women as shall we say entertainment for the evening.

I believe that there were cases of female gladiators, but it was very rare.

 

Woman were not permitted at the ancient Olympics as all the athletes competed naked.

 

I spend far too much time watching the History channel!!!

 

I know you aren't a great fan of Rugby, but there's a lot less bad language at that than at football (The players still call the Referee Sir) both on & off the pitch, perhaps it's got more to do with respect or rugby people are just nicer people? ie I've been with a train load of Leeds Rhino's fans with me wearing the oppositions colours with not a hint of trouble, wouldn't even consider doing it if it had been a football crowd.

Football has changed so much since the time of Alf, skillful players are now protected by the rules rather than them just being target practice for thugs & I think we should welcome that.

Unfortunately modern footballers do seem to cheat more than their predecessors but until the FA/Premier League/UEFA & FIFA actually take a positive lead in stamping it out by imposing proper penalties it won't get any better I'm afraid.

As for the crowd, I think it's great that more women & children come to football & it's no longer an all male preserve, after all it's supposed to be entertainment.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Arkwright

[littlehampton]

Steph, I read and agree with most of your views and opinions, but on this issue I honestly can't go along with you. There are many loyal Enfield (Town) FC fans around, but I don't think anyone can excuse or condone foul abusive language from any individual (whoever they are) who can't control their emotions, when a decision goes against their team, and they resort to gutter language to have a go at the match officials.

 

Don't think we need to tolerate this, as it is highly embarrassing and reflects very badly on our club.

[Jim Cunneen]

The Hellenic League - where Shortwood play, supposedly operates a zero tolerance!. I say supposedly as it is like everything else - not cosistently applied. It is supposed to apply to players and spectators alike and I have seen players sent off for swearing and clubs warned when supporters get out of hand. More often than not though it is rigourously ignored by clubs and officials.

[andyetfc]

Hi Steph.

 

Don't believe in it being cowardly. Just expressing an opinion which is held by others as well. If the foul and abusive language ceases, then some good may have come of this. The offender has the right of reply and the club has the right to call a halt.

 

Not too sure about the gladiators though.

[big guy]

i hear swearing and sometimes swear myself but i think the word c*** shouted from one side of the ground to the other loudly on more than one occasion is way over the top, i dont mind the odd swear word.

Its not just our good lady surporters that hear this but the younger ones as well, and lets not forget the houses along the side of the ground who might have windows open and hen hear loud and clearly "ref you are a f***ing c*** nice .

Yes i know swearing goes on on the pitch its football as said before rugby plays call the the "sir" its true proper sportsmen.

i know we will never ban swearing but lets try and ban the c word or the c*** who uses it !!!!!!!!!!!

[Steph]

Andy et al

 

Sorry my criticism of it being cowardly was a criticism of the person shouting at the ref not of the ref or yourselves. I accept that I could have phrased it better. But I thought I had illustrated my point with the anecdote about what happened in court on Wednesday. Nowhere have I condoned the particular fan's behaviour or offered him support.

 

Enfield Paul

 

Work it out. Edmonton School had a name change in the 60's.

 

Arky

 

Thanks for the history lesson I stand corrected. As for the fact that more women come to football being great hmm. I dont think there are more children at football matches in fact I think there are fewer. There are certainly fewer children at premier league and other league games.

 

As for Rugby. I have been in rugby bars after games and a more male dominated environment I have yet to see. Somebody made a fortune publishing "Rugby Songs" in the 60's.

Noel Ashford was not protected, though he was a little after Alf, but I dont think I have seen a more skilful player in an Enfield shirt.

 

I actually think cheating by shirt pulling, over acting or arm in the face is more heinouse than going in on the back of a player but we rarely see players sent off for cheating.

 

Was Berbatov's penalty against Liverpool a case of gamesmanship I believe that many refs would not have given it.

 

1) Berbatov was fouled on that I agree with the ref and, according to the laws of the game, it was a penalty.

 

2) I believe that if it had happened outside the box Berbatov would have shrugged off the challenge and continued his run. If the ref noticed the foul I reckon he would have played advantage.

 

3) It was the fall that emphasised the challenge and bought the penalty. It is my view that 20 years ago the player may not have fallen but been prepared to ride the tackle and make an attempt on goal.

[townerboy]

steph- got it. why latymer loonies though?

[Steph]

Because county boys didn't swear.

[Enfield United]

Andy et al

 

Sorry my criticism of it being cowardly was a criticism of the person shouting at the ref not of the ref or yourselves. I accept that I could have phrased it better. But I thought I had illustrated my point with the anecdote about what happened in court on Wednesday. Nowhere have I condoned the particular fan's behaviour or offered him support.

 

Enfield Paul

 

Work it out. Edmonton School had a name change in the 60's.

 

Arky

 

Thanks for the history lesson I stand corrected. As for the fact that more women come to football being great hmm. I dont think there are more children at football matches in fact I think there are fewer. There are certainly fewer children at premier league and other league games.

 

As for Rugby. I have been in rugby bars after games and a more male dominated environment I have yet to see. Somebody made a fortune publishing "Rugby Songs" in the 60's.

Noel Ashford was not protected, though he was a little after Alf, but I dont think I have seen a more skilful player in an Enfield shirt.

 

I actually think cheating by shirt pulling, over acting or arm in the face is more heinouse than going in on the back of a player but we rarely see players sent off for cheating.

 

Was Berbatov's penalty against Liverpool a case of gamesmanship I believe that many refs would not have given it.

 

1) Berbatov was fouled on that I agree with the ref and, according to the laws of the game, it was a penalty.

 

2) I believe that if it had happened outside the box Berbatov would have shrugged off the challenge and continued his run. If the ref noticed the foul I reckon he would have played advantage.

 

3) It was the fall that emphasised the challenge and bought the penalty. It is my view that 20 years ago the player may not have fallen but been prepared to ride the tackle and make an attempt on goal.

 

 

I agree the challenge on Berbatov was a penalty. As was Stuart Blacburns at the Play Off Final away to Concord last season. Just because an opponent challenges and miss's the player AND THE BALL it does not mean that the PLAYER should have to avoid a clumsy challenge. Difference is one Ref had the balls to give a penalty after 30 seconds and the other one is a ffffffff cccccccc sorry sorry the other one did not have the balls.

 

Yes if outside the box play would probably had contined but why not take a penalty if it's there for the taking.

[townerboy]

well steph thats all changed now then!!!