Points Deductions

[manager50]

I notice Croydon and Egham have has a three point deduction recently and I must admit in can be a bit of a minefield with all these players moving around. We have two lads who played for a side in the CCL Division 1 last year, and they received notice from Middlesex FA at the weekend that they were due a ban due to non payment of booking fines from that season. Had we played them without realising the severity of the situation, we would have been in the same position and been docked points. As I said, the fines were from the Middlesex FA, whereas we are Surrey FA, which is why we were not informed, I suppose. We try our best to get as much information as we can from players about where they played, so this sort of thing does not happen, but with some lads having a few clubs they can often omit some of them. It does beg the question as to how much blame can be planted on the current side if they have no direct notification. I know the club they were at and the people at that club know me very well, so we would have expected them to have perhaps contacted us to let us know there was a problem as they do know they are now with us, certainly as far as I am aware. However, I may be wrong on that score, so it is not a dig at them, but it would certainly have been annoying to say the least if we had a fine win scratched from the records, plus picked up a £100 fine on top of that, I would imagine.

It also begs the question about why get points deducted only if you earn them. Surely, if you have cheated (which by fining you the FA infer) points should be deducted anyway, with a set rate for the offence. Serial "cheaters" would then be deterred, whilst the honest ones who are simply caught out by admistrative errors would have the opportunity to plead their case. An example is - we win 3-0, but play someone who is suspended. Our opponents do the same, and we have both been caught out by the authorities. We lose the 3 points, they lose nothing. Is that right?

Worth discussing or not?

[danielpjn]

I notice Croydon and Egham have has a three point deduction recently and I must admit in can be a bit of a minefield with all these players moving around. We have two lads who played for a side in the CCL Division 1 last year, and they received notice from Middlesex FA at the weekend that they were due a ban due to non payment of booking fines from that season. Had we played them without realising the severity of the situation, we would have been in the same position and been docked points. As I said, the fines were from the Middlesex FA, whereas we are Surrey FA, which is why we were not informed, I suppose. We try our best to get as much information as we can from players about where they played, so this sort of thing does not happen, but with some lads having a few clubs they can often omit some of them. It does beg the question as to how much blame can be planted on the current side if they have no direct notification. I know the club they were at and the people at that club know me very well, so we would have expected them to have perhaps contacted us to let us know there was a problem as they do know they are now with us, certainly as far as I am aware. However, I may be wrong on that score, so it is not a dig at them, but it would certainly have been annoying to say the least if we had a fine win scratched from the records, plus picked up a £100 fine on top of that, I would imagine.

It also begs the question about why get points deducted only if you earn them. Surely, if you have cheated (which by fining you the FA infer) points should be deducted anyway, with a set rate for the offence. Serial "cheaters" would then be deterred, whilst the honest ones who are simply caught out by admistrative errors would have the opportunity to plead their case. An example is - we win 3-0, but play someone who is suspended. Our opponents do the same, and we have both been caught out by the authorities. We lose the 3 points, they lose nothing. Is that right?

Worth discussing or not?

 

I've discussed this issue with the Hampshire FA in recent weeks. Part of the issue arises because teams only register players with the league they play in and not the County FA as well.

 

Therefore you are likely to only find out that a player is suspended when he receives a booking/sending off for your club. The online database that is available on the County FA websites is going some way to deal with this potential issue. However the information is not 100% reliable and therefore clubs may still break the rules unwittingly.

[Smudge]

Joined up writing comes to mind,not in any County F.A.'s advantage to regulary update information to Clubs or their Websites.Must be a minefield fo Club Secretary's,just another Cash Cow for them,they do love a Fine.Would be nice to see some of these old die hards at games.But why change their ways,the only time you see them is at Appeals and Hearing,bit like the C.C.L. Committee seen 1 in 2 seasons at a game.

[sparky100]

There is a solution. Every time you sign a new player email your county fa asking them if the new player has any pending suspensions. If your county fa are as helpful as Surrey fa they will reply promptly with a yes or a no. If you then discover a player was suspended and you provide the email confirmation from the county fa that they said the player had no suspensions I am pretty sure the club would not be penalised.

[MiddleMan]

There is a solution. Every time you sign a new player email your county fa asking them if the new player has any pending suspensions. If your county fa are as helpful as Surrey fa they will reply promptly with a yes or a no. If you then discover a player was suspended and you provide the email confirmation from the county fa that they said the player had no suspensions I am pretty sure the club would not be penalised.

 

During the season, team managers sometimes need to sign new players quickly - often just hours before the registration deadline. All club secs can get access to the FA on-line members site which allows a check on current bans to be made within seconds. Apart from suspensions arisings from on-field incidents this check would also flag up some less obvious situations, like a player being banned for monies owing to a county FA from a former club that has gone bust. However, the on-line site will not tell you if the player is already signed on elsewhere, so clubs really need to ask potential new players about this.

 

Not fool proof, but clubs can go a long way towards cutting out registration problems by taking extra care, and asking the right questions, when signing new players. I understand there is a prospect of the FA database being extended to capture details of current clubs as well as suspensions, but as to when??

[tempestward]

I notice Croydon and Egham have has a three point deduction recently and I must admit in can be a bit of a minefield with all these players moving around. We have two lads who played for a side in the CCL Division 1 last year, and they received notice from Middlesex FA at the weekend that they were due a ban due to non payment of booking fines from that season. Had we played them without realising the severity of the situation, we would have been in the same position and been docked points. As I said, the fines were from the Middlesex FA, whereas we are Surrey FA, which is why we were not informed, I suppose. We try our best to get as much information as we can from players about where they played, so this sort of thing does not happen, but with some lads having a few clubs they can often omit some of them. It does beg the question as to how much blame can be planted on the current side if they have no direct notification. I know the club they were at and the people at that club know me very well, so we would have expected them to have perhaps contacted us to let us know there was a problem as they do know they are now with us, certainly as far as I am aware. However, I may be wrong on that score, so it is not a dig at them, but it would certainly have been annoying to say the least if we had a fine win scratched from the records, plus picked up a £100 fine on top of that, I would imagine.

It also begs the question about why get points deducted only if you earn them. Surely, if you have cheated (which by fining you the FA infer) points should be deducted anyway, with a set rate for the offence. Serial "cheaters" would then be deterred, whilst the honest ones who are simply caught out by admistrative errors would have the opportunity to plead their case. An example is - we win 3-0, but play someone who is suspended. Our opponents do the same, and we have both been caught out by the authorities. We lose the 3 points, they lose nothing. Is that right?

Worth discussing or not?

 

Um, we can't really complain.We played someone who was correctly signed but had been banned for the match and it got overlooked. Manure happens.

[Big J R]

If in doubt - ASK, then you're covered !

[PurpleTram]

During the season, team managers sometimes need to sign new players quickly - often just hours before the registration deadline. All club secs can get access to the FA on-line members site which allows a check on current bans to be made within seconds. Apart from suspensions arisings from on-field incidents this check would also flag up some less obvious situations, like a player being banned for monies owing to a county FA from a former club that has gone bust. However, the on-line site will not tell you if the player is already signed on elsewhere, so clubs really need to ask potential new players about this.

 

Not fool proof, but clubs can go a long way towards cutting out registration problems by taking extra care, and asking the right questions, when signing new players. I understand there is a prospect of the FA database being extended to capture details of current clubs as well as suspensions, but as to when??

 

Is that the Mitoo site? If so, beware club secretaries. Thats not 100% accurate, and was one of the reasons why we came a cropper.

 

Another question along similar lines, if a club is deducted points, should the club they were playing against be awarded the points instead? I'm fairly sure they do that in the Sussex County League.

[MiddleMan]

During the season, team managers sometimes need to sign new players quickly - often just hours before the registration deadline. All club secs can get access to the FA on-line members site which allows a check on current bans to be made within seconds. Apart from suspensions arisings from on-field incidents this check would also flag up some less obvious situations, like a player being banned for monies owing to a county FA from a former club that has gone bust. However, the on-line site will not tell you if the player is already signed on elsewhere, so clubs really need to ask potential new players about this.

 

Not fool proof, but clubs can go a long way towards cutting out registration problems by taking extra care, and asking the right questions, when signing new players. I understand there is a prospect of the FA database being extended to capture details of current clubs as well as suspensions, but as to when??

 

Is that the Mitoo site? If so, beware club secretaries. Thats not 100% accurate, and was one of the reasons why we came a cropper.

 

Another question along similar lines, if a club is deducted points, should the club they were playing against be awarded the points instead? I'm fairly sure they do that in the Sussex County League.

 

No Mr Tram - not Mitoo. The FA maintain a central database covering all player suspensions. The site has been up & running since the start of the 2009/2010 season and can be accessed on-line via the County FA website (members page) by any club sec who has applied to their County FA for a FAN number and password. If clubs play a new signing without checking the database they are asking for trouble.

[Smudge]

Middleman is correct,they used to send out copies to Clubs also,naming any Players that had played for them in previous Seasons.But the Seperate F.A.s are not joined up,regards Sunday Football which many Players still play.

[manager50]

I take most points made and I know that there are ways of checking if we feel the need. They two players I refer to at Molesey have been with us some time now and one has played at least a dozen games. They are also affiliated to Staines Town and I am aware of any games played for them and potential bookings/fines. The thing is that the recent disclosures are from the season 2009/2010 and were matters that had no bearing when they were involved with us, and not even from the current season. The club they were involved with do not seem to have contacted them and the matter has been passed back to Middlesex FA, who have taken the relevant action. Nothing wrong with that, but it would still be a bitter pill to swallow should we have innocently played them and then had points deducted. And I know it was mentioned in a rather matter of fact way that **** happens, but when you are trying to win leagues it may not exactly be seen that way if something totally out of the managers control contrives to scupper that. The Mitoo site was one that I used previously, often to see if our forthcoming opponents had any suspensions pending, but I now know that this cannot be relied on. I got an email about the FA site and have received a FAN number, but have had problems actually getting on this. The suggestion of "asking" is okay if the person you are asking knows the answer - the two lads certainly have no recollection of a booking sometime last season. I am not sure if the Surrey FA would have information on suspensions via other FA's, perhaps somone would know. Having said that, I remember now that I spoke with our club Secretary on Saturday, having found out the news about the Middlesex FA, and she actually showed me correspondence received from Surrey FA last week with an update on outstanding disciplinary cases for Molesey. There was no mention of these cases, so I assume that the answer would be no. Had we played the lads and then been advised of the potential for deduction, would the production of this letter from Surrey FA have been accepted as proof that we should not be found guilty - I am not too sure. I certainly have no definitive answer, it is just a subject that came to mind when I saw the recent league bulletin. Must go, need to pay my new Portugese strikers parking fine incurred in Lisbon during the summer of 2007 so that he can play for us tonight against Banstead! Where's that flippin' Euro cheque book?

[UK Sub]

I notice Croydon and Egham have has a three point deduction recently and I must admit in can be a bit of a minefield with all these players moving around. We have two lads who played for a side in the CCL Division 1 last year, and they received notice from Middlesex FA at the weekend that they were due a ban due to non payment of booking fines from that season. Had we played them without realising the severity of the situation, we would have been in the same position and been docked points. As I said, the fines were from the Middlesex FA, whereas we are Surrey FA, which is why we were not informed, I suppose. We try our best to get as much information as we can from players about where they played, so this sort of thing does not happen, but with some lads having a few clubs they can often omit some of them. It does beg the question as to how much blame can be planted on the current side if they have no direct notification. I know the club they were at and the people at that club know me very well, so we would have expected them to have perhaps contacted us to let us know there was a problem as they do know they are now with us, certainly as far as I am aware. However, I may be wrong on that score, so it is not a dig at them, but it would certainly have been annoying to say the least if we had a fine win scratched from the records, plus picked up a £100 fine on top of that, I would imagine.

It also begs the question about why get points deducted only if you earn them. Surely, if you have cheated (which by fining you the FA infer) points should be deducted anyway, with a set rate for the offence. Serial "cheaters" would then be deterred, whilst the honest ones who are simply caught out by admistrative errors would have the opportunity to plead their case. An example is - we win 3-0, but play someone who is suspended. Our opponents do the same, and we have both been caught out by the authorities. We lose the 3 points, they lose nothing. Is that right?

Worth discussing or not?

 

Um, we can't really complain.We played someone who was correctly signed but had been banned for the match and it got overlooked. Manure happens.

 

As a club we can't complain, but as a paying supporter I can ! In these circumstances manure only happens if you let it !

 

I wonder if anyone at the club remembers to apply for promotion this year? (now there's false optimism!)

[MiddleMan]

I take most points made and I know that there are ways of checking if we feel the need. They two players I refer to at Molesey have been with us some time now and one has played at least a dozen games. They are also affiliated to Staines Town and I am aware of any games played for them and potential bookings/fines. The thing is that the recent disclosures are from the season 2009/2010 and were matters that had no bearing when they were involved with us, and not even from the current season. The club they were involved with do not seem to have contacted them and the matter has been passed back to Middlesex FA, who have taken the relevant action. Nothing wrong with that, but it would still be a bitter pill to swallow should we have innocently played them and then had points deducted. And I know it was mentioned in a rather matter of fact way that **** happens, but when you are trying to win leagues it may not exactly be seen that way if something totally out of the managers control contrives to scupper that. The Mitoo site was one that I used previously, often to see if our forthcoming opponents had any suspensions pending, but I now know that this cannot be relied on. I got an email about the FA site and have received a FAN number, but have had problems actually getting on this. The suggestion of "asking" is okay if the person you are asking knows the answer - the two lads certainly have no recollection of a booking sometime last season. I am not sure if the Surrey FA would have information on suspensions via other FA's, perhaps somone would know. Having said that, I remember now that I spoke with our club Secretary on Saturday, having found out the news about the Middlesex FA, and she actually showed me correspondence received from Surrey FA last week with an update on outstanding disciplinary cases for Molesey. There was no mention of these cases, so I assume that the answer would be no. Had we played the lads and then been advised of the potential for deduction, would the production of this letter from Surrey FA have been accepted as proof that we should not be found guilty - I am not too sure. I certainly have no definitive answer, it is just a subject that came to mind when I saw the recent league bulletin. Must go, need to pay my new Portugese strikers parking fine incurred in Lisbon during the summer of 2007 so that he can play for us tonight against Banstead! Where's that flippin' Euro cheque book?

 

The FA members site contains suspension details from ALL County FA's throughout England. So, as an example, a player from a Berks & Bucks registered club receiving a suspension will be flagged up on the system, and this information can then be accessed by any authorised person by going into the database via their own County FA website. So if you are a club sec with a Surrey based club you will be able to see the suspension details. And ALL suspensions means just that - Sunday leagues included. Frankly, senior clubs (CCFL) should not be caught out unless there is some one-off admin [****!!****]-up, in which case an appeal should be made. However, in some reserve leagues players can be signed on 'same day', so there is always a danger you could end up playing someone already signed for another club in the same competition.

[danielpjn]

As I stated previously, the information on the County FA sites is not 100% accurate.

 

We had a player who had been signed on and playing at our club for a number of years. Then a few weeks ago he appeared on the sine die list of suspended players. After speaking to the Hants FA they stated that this was for a booking that wasn't paid in 2007. I queried this and asked for the original fine to be sent to my email and I would then make payment. However they were unable to produce the document, but insisted I paid the fine otherwise he would remain on the suspended players list.

 

They could offer no explanation as to why this £8 fine only came to light 3 years after the alleged offence date.

 

Personally I think the County FAs are uploading data onto a new system, which flagged this payment as outstanding. The impression I got was that the software did not allow for the payment to be written off.

 

We had no reason to check if the player was suspended sine die, as he only played for our club over the past two season. This was only discovered this by chance and highlights a flaw in the system.

 

The Hants FA wrote to the player at an old address and therefore he was not aware that he was suspended either.