Standard of refs

[pearcey no.1]

I believe myself that the Clubs are more to blame,than the players,reason to scared or cannot be bothered with all the paperwork involved to complain to the League.Did Croydon for example mark the Ref down and complain,on either of Lensmeisters opinions of Refs for Municipal/Camberley games.I think I know the answer.

 

This is my point. Some club officials may not wish to be seen to "rock the boat", or be bothered to complain as it won't get them anywhere.

 

 

Even at kids team levels if you give the ref a low score you have to fill out forms and I have heard managers say "the ref was rubbish but give him the minimum mark as I can't be bothered to fill in the paperwork and nothing will be done anyway!"

 

Is it time for a 4th official and an assessor at EVERY game ?

Good call on the 4 th official, maybe use a younger or up and coming ref and let him how the older more experianced do.an extra pair of eyes out there can only help.I heard ngu marked the ref down after there game midweek.

[Lensmeister]

I believe myself that the Clubs are more to blame,than the players,reason to scared or cannot be bothered with all the paperwork involved to complain to the League.Did Croydon for example mark the Ref down and complain,on either of Lensmeisters opinions of Refs for Municipal/Camberley games.I think I know the answer.

 

This is my point. Some club officials may not wish to be seen to "rock the boat", or be bothered to complain as it won't get them anywhere.

 

 

Even at kids team levels if you give the ref a low score you have to fill out forms and I have heard managers say "the ref was rubbish but give him the minimum mark as I can't be bothered to fill in the paperwork and nothing will be done anyway!"

 

Is it time for a 4th official and an assessor at EVERY game ?

 

 

3 answers 1)Firstly do not moan 2)Complain 3)Post on here,because I think Kroons carries weight,not only by the burgers he is reputed to eat, but within the C.C.L.Worked this week anyway as Farleigh and Hartley would agree

 

Answers:

1) Open forum. If I wish to point out my opinions on Refs, why cannot I?

2) Open forum. See above.

3) Open forum. Why not?

[Lensmeister]

I believe myself that the Clubs are more to blame,than the players,reason to scared or cannot be bothered with all the paperwork involved to complain to the League.Did Croydon for example mark the Ref down and complain,on either of Lensmeisters opinions of Refs for Municipal/Camberley games.I think I know the answer.

 

This is my point. Some club officials may not wish to be seen to "rock the boat", or be bothered to complain as it won't get them anywhere.

 

 

Even at kids team levels if you give the ref a low score you have to fill out forms and I have heard managers say "the ref was rubbish but give him the minimum mark as I can't be bothered to fill in the paperwork and nothing will be done anyway!"

 

Is it time for a 4th official and an assessor at EVERY game ?

Good call on the 4 th official, maybe use a younger or up and coming ref and let him how the older more experianced do.an extra pair of eyes out there can only help.I heard ngu marked the ref down after there game midweek.

That's a good idea, professional attitude towards the future.

[Smudge]

Lens,they struggle to get enough Officials now,so how they going to find more.In my opinion a 4th Official would make things worse,many teams would be managerless for many games a season.Managers are not saints.Then there is the cost, football at this level is run on a shoestring budget for many clubs,and whilst an extra £7 gets you a Premiership C.C.L Ref,you would have to pay minimum £36 for 4th Official.Did Croydon officially complain?

[pearcey no.1]

Lens,they struggle to get enough Officials now,so how they going to find more.In my opinion a 4th Official would make things worse,many teams would be managerless for many games a season.Managers are not saints.Then there is the cost, football at this level is run on a shoestring budget for many clubs,and whilst an extra £7 gets you a Premiership C.C.L Ref,you would have to pay minimum £36 for 4th Official.Did Croydon officially complain?

I agree on the funds front, but if you get a young official on a learning experience and keep them local so to keep the x's down, similar to a yts scheme obviously there's plenty of creese's to iron out but having watched my 11 yr old son and seen plenty of youngs ref learning there trade, surley like a youth team player being invited to sit on the bench for the 1st team a young ref would jump at the chance to be the 4th official.it would also let them meet players, managers and club officials and they would know what to expect when officiating at this club in the future

[SurreyLegend]

I can't say I have ever heard a ref tell a player to eff off. I have seen an assistant give the w@nker sign to one of our players in the past and he was reported by the ref and punnished accordingly.

 

 

I would have probably given me the same sign. Why is it always me?

[Red Spot]

Lens,they struggle to get enough Officials now,so how they going to find more.In my opinion a 4th Official would make things worse,many teams would be managerless for many games a season.Managers are not saints.Then there is the cost, football at this level is run on a shoestring budget for many clubs,and whilst an extra £7 gets you a Premiership C.C.L Ref,you would have to pay minimum £36 for 4th Official.Did Croydon officially complain?

I agree on the funds front, but if you get a young official on a learning experience and keep them local so to keep the x's down, similar to a yts scheme obviously there's plenty of creese's to iron out but having watched my 11 yr old son and seen plenty of youngs ref learning there trade, surley like a youth team player being invited to sit on the bench for the 1st team a young ref would jump at the chance to be the 4th official.it would also let them meet players, managers and club officials and they would know what to expect when officiating at this club in the future

 

Having listened to the language that is used on the field of play I would not want my son (a newly qualified referee at 14) to listen to the language that is used at the majority of the games. I also have a son who is much older (in his mid 20's) and he would not dare use bad langiage in front of me... He knows better....Call me old fashioned but there is no place for bad language in public places for any reason...

 

Why do people have to swear?

 

Don't get me wrong - I think the experience for younger refs would be great.. but in a controlled way...

[Terrence Collina]

Fair comment Red Spot, but your son would not be able to officiate on the league until he was 16.

 

IMO, the poison of bad language, surrounding referees, and the consistant barracking of referees all stems from the FA Premier League and until the FA/PL crack down on it at that level, it will continue to happen at our level. A terrible excuse but it is life that people copy what they percive to be the norm.

 

Yes I shout and appeal at referees, but I like to think I know where to draw the line.

 

I would like to see referees be stronger in certain areas.

 

Crack down on dissent from the first whistle - yes there will be a lot of yellow cards, but when teams start finishing games with 8/9 men the clubs will take note

We calling a player over to talk to them, ref's should not go and meet them halfway. The watch should be stopped and therefore there is no time wasting. Wait for the player until he gets there and when he gets there, if the player starts looking down or fiddling with his socks, wait for him to stand up before talking. At the same time, the referee should be polite and not shout at the player, unless the player gets really obnoxious.

 

My final peve for referees at the moment is that too many when they caution a player do not tell them why. When you do your test, you are instructed that you have to inform the player what you a cautioning or dismissing them for. The cards are only they to advise others what has happened.

[Red Spot]

Fair comment Red Spot, but your son would not be able to officiate on the league until he was 16.

 

IMO, the poison of bad language, surrounding referees, and the consistant barracking of referees all stems from the FA Premier League and until the FA/PL crack down on it at that level, it will continue to happen at our level. A terrible excuse but it is life that people copy what they percive to be the norm.

 

Yes I shout and appeal at referees, but I like to think I know where to draw the line.

 

I would like to see referees be stronger in certain areas.

 

Crack down on dissent from the first whistle - yes there will be a lot of yellow cards, but when teams start finishing games with 8/9 men the clubs will take note

We calling a player over to talk to them, ref's should not go and meet them halfway. The watch should be stopped and therefore there is no time wasting. Wait for the player until he gets there and when he gets there, if the player starts looking down or fiddling with his socks, wait for him to stand up before talking. At the same time, the referee should be polite and not shout at the player, unless the player gets really obnoxious.

 

My final peve for referees at the moment is that too many when they caution a player do not tell them why. When you do your test, you are instructed that you have to inform the player what you a cautioning or dismissing them for. The cards are only they to advise others what has happened.

 

TC - I appreciate he would not be able to officiate at adult level until he reaches 16 but that said, for young referees to be able to watch and learn would be a good thing I think. Man Management is one of the hardest things to learn out on the field of play. You get that by watching peers and experiencing it yourself. The more they can learn - the better for the junior referees surely... This would all lead to a more experienced referee once they get to higher levels. Personally, I also do not agree that referees should be fast-tracked on the promotion ladder (I know that some referees will disagree with these thoughts) i.e jump from 7 - 5 as they will lose out on all the man management skills at the intermediary levels

 

We (clubs and the FA as they set the rules) are happy to allow 14 year olds to referee youth games (2 years below their age until you reach 16 and then you can jump to adult) but in an under 12 match I have seen language and abuse far worse than I have seen on a CCL game (at any level - not the norm but occasionally). This all stems from the parents and managers who some seem to employ a 'win at all costs attitude'.

 

Yes - the FA/PL do need to crack down as you do not need to be an expert lip reader in order to see what the players are saying. Referees all have different tolerance levels as well. Some referees have a zero tolerance level and others seem to be virtually deaf. I do feel that we need to try and get some consistency there as well.

Referees pre-match instructions sometime tell the assistants that it is there own tolerance level that they will support if a player 'spouts' off at him (the assistant) but if the player has already said something to a referee (who appears deaf to bad language) where is the consistency there????

 

As always - more questions than answers

[Jurg78]

Lots of good valid points above.

 

My one gripe with officials is when they refuse to answer a question when you ask them. Fair enough if you have just given them a torrent of abuse, but on more than one occasion when I've asked (may I add in a nice way now I'm older and wiser!!!) I've been given the answer of "because I don't have too!!".

Now I find this is a lack of respect and is actually obnoxious. If a player respects the official enough to merely ask them a question as to why they have made a decision, then it would be nice for the official to explain it. Giving the above response only antagonise's players and they then wonder why some players/management then don't respect them.

 

In one game this season whilst getting booked (I'd asked why a player was allowed to take a throw some 15 yards further into our half) the ref even said to me "I saw your game last week and if I was reffing and you had spoken to me like that I would have sent you off!".

Nice to know that some of them come into games with pre conceived agendas with some players - I'd like to point out that the previous week the ref didn't book me as we were just having a chat whilst a player was receiving treatment and he gave his opinion on the subject I had asked about and we all moved on!

[The KnapMeister]

Some interesting points there Lensmeister. Interestingly you mention the Croydon game against Camberley where your views were contridicted by other people who saw the incident's differently to you.

 

I referee at this level and I do my best and give what I see. I give a throw in which is wrong and I get all manner of grief from bench, players and fans. 1 minute later and their striker misses an open goal and it is all bad luck son, keep your head up etc. That is why it is different to referee.

 

Respect is another issue. I am told I have to earn the players respect. I disagree. They should respect me from the start as I should respect them. It is then for me to lose their respect not for me to have to earn it. I respect every player I officiate until they show me they do not deserve to be respected. And to be honest there are very few players that fall into that category.

 

Of course there are bad officials as there are bad players but because 1 ref has a bad game does not mean that we are all like that. I am sure my performances go up and down just the same as players form goes up and down.

 

The real problem is that there are not enough officials and really that is no surprise. How many of the players on this forum will take up the whistle when they pack up playing ? A genuine question that I think will be very low. Same as the professional game. Refs don't understand the game blah blah. Well how many ex pros become refs. Virtually none because they know who hard and thankless the job is.

 

Oh and finally do you really think the league should act on comments made on the forum.

 

Already looking forward to the replies

 

 

 

 

Well Done Kroons!

 

A very insightful and honest posting. The officials should be granted the respect their position demands, not have to earn it. If they make mistakes, then we are all human. Well done again, you have my backing all the way.

[Smudge]

Have been doing a little research myself into this subject,I have found out that Refs for Premier Games get £7 more expenses per game,than their Div 1 counterparts.That there are 45 Referees on the Combined Counties Panel,so would this mean that 15 per weekend were not wanted,or would they run a line somewhere.And in answer to the question do Refs read this forum,the answer is yes,Kroons for 1,and Mr Wells did last week, as he intimated to me yesterday.But as I have stated elsewhere all 3 Officials had excellent games,with the Referee applying a bit of common sense on 2 Occassions,that other Refs,would of gone straight for a card.Why because he talked to players and had their respect.I believe myself that the Clubs are more to blame,than the players,reason to scared or cannot be bothered with all the paperwork involved to complain to the League.Did Croydon for example mark the Ref down and complain,on either of Lensmeisters opinions of Refs for Municipal/Camberley games.I think I know the answer.

 

 

I have come to the conclusion that what i have posted above must be correct,why have I come to this conclusion

.Kroons has not commented,Croydon never complained.But we are no nearer a solution.My solution the committee that run this League ,should get out and about and watch a few more matches.This would serve many purposes,if the Ref was poor in a game,, he could be monitored more,because at least they had seen it with there own eyes.As for teams they would get to know which sides give Refs no respect,and could warn them that as a club,they were being watched as to their players future conduct.Its not rocket science,and myself neither being a Ref or player have no axe to grind.Just imagine if the League was a company,I would like to know what my customers thought of the product,and take their views on board,so yes the C.C.L. should read this Forum,but probably do not.

[Krooner]

50% of Premier games have to be assessed for the league to retain it's supply status so plenty of CCL Premier games are watched.

 

The men and women who run this league do it as unpaid volunteers. Do you think that they should give up more of their weekend to go and watch games ? Some of them are not referees so would they give a view that would help. Maybe and maybe not.

 

There was a suggestion above that only captains be allowed to talk to the ref. Maybe that is a good idea but I would hate that. What if the Captain was the goalkeeper and you had a problem at the other end of the pitch. There would be zero communication at times. As a referee if asked I will explain my decision to the player who is asking. I will tell him just once because the answer will not change. Nearly every time that happens I am told I am wrong (Jurg will testify to that !) Now I accept on some of those occasions I probably was but I reckon in the majority I was right.

 

People have different personalities and it is impossible to have consistency with that. Some refs you will be able to talk too but others you will not. Same as the players. Doesnt mean they are bad just have different ways in dealing with situations. You have to understand how to handle some refs as we have to understand how to handle some players.

 

Can I just say this is the best thread on here for ages so well done Smashy and all contributors for some great stuff (Surrey Legend excepted). Always happy to talk from the refs side. Send me a PM if you want to do that

[Jurg78]

You are always wrong Kroons - I will certainly testify that haha

[Smudge]

Kroons do assessors get paid?Going to Carshalton tomoz if it's on,to give the Badshot Boys a bit of support.I would gratefully offer my services for free,to become an Officials guru.Tell me where your reffing next,and I will come watch,and give you my honest opinion.Good or Bad I Will tell you.

 

 

[Krooner]

And were not slow to tell me either Jurgie

 

Smudgey I am not in the middle for a while but will let you know nearer the time.

 

Assessors get expenses for travelling to games.

[Big J R]

As I am at most of Dorkings and Bookhams home games at Meadowbank, I get to ensure the Assessors are well looked after.

 

We seem to have had the same assessor turning up for the majority of matches over the last two seasons.

 

We have become great friends and usually chat long before and sometimes during the game.

 

I find his comments very constructive, and believe you me, he will put a slightly 'dodgy' referee back on the straight and narrow. I've known his 'de-brief' in the changing rooms take as long as half an hour after a match.

[Smudge]

B.J.R. sounds as though this guy is spoilt by you lot at Dorking,you sure he is the genuine article.Must say though that you are a very friendly bunch there.Can never understand why the assessor lets the Ref.know he is at the game in the first place.Surely this is detrimental,like all things with exams,some breeze through them ,others fail the test.

[Smudge]

And were not slow to tell me either Jurgie

 

Smudgey I am not in the middle for a while but will let you know nearer the time.

 

Assessors get expenses for travelling to games.

 

 

Kroons,so we will not be able to have a Christmas drink,is it a fitness or injury problem or you just chilling.Who pays the assessors? the league or F.A.

[Krooner]

Depends where you get too between now and then Smudgey. I think the FA pay for the assessors but dont quote me on that.