Standard of refs

[Big J R]

Can you post a link at all BJR??

 

 

The article hasn't actually been posted on the web. I read it in the paper itself.

 

If you want, I'll type it out and PM it to you.

 

I have met the new Sports Editor of the Dorking Advertiser, and he definitely 'says it as he see it' !

 

B.J.R. not Ian Lamont by any chance at THE Dorking Advertiser.

 

 

No - It's Lee Wilmot heading the sports reporting for the D.A.

[Terrence Collina]

I think I'll jump in now.

 

I think we all know that the higher the league, the better the officials you are supposed to get, and therefore you pay more. It is right that the Premier guys are paid more than the Div 1 guys just like the FA Prem guys get more than the Championship guys.

 

Yes, Div 1 teamswould probably like to pay more for the better refs, but the better refs want the better games which regardless of the teams playing, would be a Prem game over a Div 1 game.

 

Div 1 teams know what the difference is because it will say so in the League Handbook.

 

As Krooner has mentioned in the past, we play CCL level for the same reason that refs ref at this level, because the majority are not good enough to play higher.

 

I personally are more dissapointed with the attitude of some referees rather than their performance. We had one guy this season who cautioned players in an agressive manner totally uncalled for and last year in the Vase we had one burk who said that the level he was reffing was beneath him - bang out of order.

 

If players start getting nasty to refs, then I can understand refs getting angry back, but sometimes it is totally uncalled for.

[pearcey no.1]

I think I'll jump in now.

 

I think we all know that the higher the league, the better the officials you are supposed to get, and therefore you pay more. It is right that the Premier guys are paid more than the Div 1 guys just like the FA Prem guys get more than the Championship guys.

 

Yes, Div 1 teamswould probably like to pay more for the better refs, but the better refs want the better games which regardless of the teams playing, would be a Prem game over a Div 1 game.

 

Div 1 teams know what the difference is because it will say so in the League Handbook.

 

As Krooner has mentioned in the past, we play CCL level for the same reason that refs ref at this level, because the majority are not good enough to play higher.

 

I personally are more dissapointed with the attitude of some referees rather than their performance. We had one guy this season who cautioned players in an agressive manner totally uncalled for and last year in the Vase we had one burk who said that the level he was reffing was beneath him - bang out of order.

 

If players start getting nasty to refs, then I can understand refs getting angry back, but sometimes it is totally uncalled for.

There is a ref in this lge who will happily tell you to f"&k off rather go away and if you fire the same 2 words at him it's a card yet they cry they want more respect,I have respect for any man(or women) that will stand in the middle of football pitch knowing full well they will be abused from players,managers and fans for 90 min.

[Terrence Collina]

I can't say I have ever heard a ref tell a player to eff off. I have seen an assistant give the w@nker sign to one of our players in the past and he was reported by the ref and punnished accordingly.

[Weeble]

Right...here is my view for what its worth..

 

Last year as the year before the standard of " ref's " in the CCL was not as good as it could be. I have watched only one game at CCL prem level, ( thats cos now I am a proper BTK ), this year and in my opinion the standard has not got any better albiet a snapshot.

I feel that ref's do like to get on with the better sides at any level and experienced this last year ay BGFC. Not often at home did many decisions go against and I know the same was true of Merstham the year before. Another topic for debate is the ref's seem to know players and managers names at the higher placed clubs.

However if I had the chance to earn whatever the ref's earn on a wet and cold afternoon, travel all over the place, and earn in some cases a small portion of some premaddona, which would then result in an hour and a half of abuse from almost every player and spectator then if I could spend that time sticking pins in my eyes I think thats what I would do.

No wonder a lot of the ref's are not up to scratch at all levels ......Some of the good ones have had enough and can do something else without the aggro and petulant behaviour of so called stars, which must give any budding ref's the wrong message and make them think about their future in the game.

As for fffin and blinding....The ref's used to know me quite well as most of them put my name and number in their books before the game and would warm up their arms when they saw me before the game in a windmill fashion so that when they booked me they would not strain any muscles, but the banter and the swearing was a two way thing .These days a lot of good refs have been limited as to what they can and cannot do by rules.

P.S. Smashy keep up bringing this kind of topic as it creates healthy debate...something that has been lacking since all us BTK's have gone. Oh does everyone know I am at Hampton and Richmond reserves at the moment and on our next evening match I will sort out anyone from the regular CCL forum free entry to watch ( reserves that is) as long as I have names.....

[pearcey no.1]

Right...here is my view for what its worth..

 

Last year as the year before the standard of " ref's " in the CCL was not as good as it could be. I have watched only one game at CCL prem level, ( thats cos now I am a proper BTK ), this year and in my opinion the standard has not got any better albiet a snapshot.

I feel that ref's do like to get on with the better sides at any level and experienced this last year ay BGFC. Not often at home did many decisions go against and I know the same was true of Merstham the year before. Another topic for debate is the ref's seem to know players and managers names at the higher placed clubs.

However if I had the chance to earn whatever the ref's earn on a wet and cold afternoon, travel all over the place, and earn in some cases a small portion of some premaddona, which would then result in an hour and a half of abuse from almost every player and spectator then if I could spend that time sticking pins in my eyes I think thats what I would do.

No wonder a lot of the ref's are not up to scratch at all levels ......Some of the good ones have had enough and can do something else without the aggro and petulant behaviour of so called stars, which must give any budding ref's the wrong message and make them think about their future in the game.

As for fffin and blinding....The ref's used to know me quite well as most of them put my name and number in their books before the game and would warm up their arms when they saw me before the game in a windmill fashion so that when they booked me they would not strain any muscles, but the banter and the swearing was a two way thing .These days a lot of good refs have been limited as to what they can and cannot do by rules.

P.S. Smashy keep up bringing this kind of topic as it creates healthy debate...something that has been lacking since all us BTK's have gone. Oh does everyone know I am at Hampton and Richmond reserves at the moment and on our next evening match I will sort out anyone from the regular CCL forum free entry to watch ( reserves that is) as long as I have names.....

Ta weeble, must admit it's been busy on this page let's see if any posts on here tommorrow about referees tommorrow I'm watching egham v ash tommorrow pitch permiting,

[Weeble]

Smashey ...if Egham game off 2morrow would you come and watch us?

[Regan]

We've had some very good referees (and other officials) recently - particularly in our match against Bookham a week ago. In fact, thinking about it, the only time we've had any poor referees has been in the FA competitions!

 

I'd suggest the standard is actually improving, along with the footballing standard of the league...

[Lensmeister]

Be be brutally honest I don't think that refs in the CCL are alone in their ability to ruin many peoples weekends/evenings. I have seen some good decisions this season (Croydon vs Camberley no action taken about about a push which resulted in a another player being accidently injured). Then in the same vein I have seen some appalling decision (2 blatant offsides in the Municiple game).

 

But I have to say it's not just the CCL that is suffering. Last couple of seasons we, at the Arena, had to suffer the ineptitude of the KL officials who would blow a whistle for the sake of it.

 

CCL, KL and this level officials tend to be what Fergusson would say - unfit. Also a number of them have developed a high degree of messiah complex. Once an appalling decision is made they expect everyone in the ground to agree with them and woe-be-tide anyone disagreeing with them. Out come the cards and off go the players or managers (Again the Croydon Camberley game comes to mind and the poor Camberley person sent to the stand). Therefore compounding their errors even more.

 

League management need to start taking a look a their officials a little more carefully. Assessors and club officials only make up part of the attendence at a game. If an officials is being complained about religiously on forums, then surely they should take notice and think "Hey what is i about Mr. A. Official that makes supporters complain repleatedly?"

 

I do feel a number of them do need to be looked at. A fair number of linesmen have, this season, been lacking in their ability to see offsides, incidents but are amazingly fast to report a player for complaining. Surely a double standard? Get the decision right and you won't be moaned at.

 

Sure being a match official is a hard job and at times thankless. But at the end of the day they get paid for their services. As you and I all know, if at work (or where ever you are being paid) you mess up, then you'll end up sacked or docked wages. If players are fined for being booked or sent off, maybe the officials should be docked or fined for repeatedly being poor standard?

 

And before any of you start on about being unfair on Croydon I will remind you:

a. Croydon is NOT my first team.

b. I watch more than just Croydon games.

c. I have watched football all over the country.

[Krooner]

Some interesting points there Lensmeister. Interestingly you mention the Croydon game against Camberley where your views were contridicted by other people who saw the incident's differently to you.

 

I referee at this level and I do my best and give what I see. I give a throw in which is wrong and I get all manner of grief from bench, players and fans. 1 minute later and their striker misses an open goal and it is all bad luck son, keep your head up etc. That is why it is different to referee.

 

Respect is another issue. I am told I have to earn the players respect. I disagree. They should respect me from the start as I should respect them. It is then for me to lose their respect not for me to have to earn it. I respect every player I officiate until they show me they do not deserve to be respected. And to be honest there are very few players that fall into that category.

 

Of course there are bad officials as there are bad players but because 1 ref has a bad game does not mean that we are all like that. I am sure my performances go up and down just the same as players form goes up and down.

 

The real problem is that there are not enough officials and really that is no surprise. How many of the players on this forum will take up the whistle when they pack up playing ? A genuine question that I think will be very low. Same as the professional game. Refs don't understand the game blah blah. Well how many ex pros become refs. Virtually none because they know who hard and thankless the job is.

 

Oh and finally do you really think the league should act on comments made on the forum.

 

Already looking forward to the replies

[TRS]

I referee at this level and I do my best and give what I see. I give a throw in which is wrong and I get all manner of grief from bench, players and fans.

 

Quite right too Kroons! :dance (2):

 

Seriously though, I agree with most of what you say. I wouldn't be a ref or a linesman in a million years. Thankless task and i'm just grateful someone is willing to do it!

[Green_Fingers]

As ever Mr Krooner, a common sense response to what is always a highly charged, emotive subject.

 

Most of us old-timers (especially ex-Referees) know that refereeing is a thankless job. Players (even goalkeepers) are watched to see how well they play. Match officials however are scrutinized to see how many mistakes they make!

 

To make the comparison, if a player was to come out of a match analyzed like a referee, he could have scored three goals and created 2 more, but if had made two critical errors, he would be remembered for the errors and not the hat trick !

 

I played in days when Refs had the respect from the kick-off and as you say only lost it when a series of bad decisions (probably for both teams), soured the match. Far too often these days players/ managers believe they have the right to contest every decision – how many times do you see both sets of players arms going up to claim a throw-in when clearly it can only go one way?

 

There are no easy answers in an era when so much of our behaviour / responses are “learned” from what we see on the telly but I would support a rule change so that only captains can talk to referees in terms of contesting decisions. Surrounding the ref, running up to him and shouting / swearing at him are grounds for a booking (applied much more freely than the usual punishment for dissent).

 

Referees will not get every decision right – and referees who get decisions wrong must be encourage to improve or let go. However, the game is not helped by players and managers constantly harassing referees.

[Big J R]

Be be brutally honest .......

 

CCL, KL and this level officials tend to be what Fergusson would say - unfit.

 

 

That's two match touch-line ban for you then, Lennsy !!

 

:coffee (2):

[Lensmeister]

Some interesting points there Lensmeister. Interestingly you mention the Croydon game against Camberley where your views were contridicted by other people who saw the incident's differently to you.

 

Regards to the push/stamp/kick a player incident. I was closer than the bench on that one and I saw what happend. Sadly those who were in the stand and gave another opinion did not see it. likewise neither did the ref or the lineo. But I also defended the person who was sent from the dug out! Both the officials did not see the incident, but the ref still saw fit to send the man away for complaining. I will admit I never heard what he said, but did he really need to send the man away when he could have officially cautioned him. There were NO cards shown. Strange?

 

I referee at this level and I do my best and give what I see. I give a throw in which is wrong and I get all manner of grief from bench, players and fans. 1 minute later and their striker misses an open goal and it is all bad luck son, keep your head up etc. That is why it is different to referee.

 

I agree completely. But you must admit many referees are inconsistant letting one player move 20 or 30 feet along the touchline to take a throw when a few minute previous they have pulled another player back to take it again.

 

Respect is another issue. I am told I have to earn the players respect. I disagree. They should respect me from the start as I should respect them. It is then for me to lose their respect not for me to have to earn it. I respect every player I officiate until they show me they do not deserve to be respected. And to be honest there are very few players that fall into that category.

 

Respect IS a two way thing. Players must respect and officials must respect players. BOTH must earn it too. Just because you are an official does not mean you must be respected, just as just because your are the leading scorer means you get to take all the penalties. Let be honest here, players are a fickle lot, and officials are human.

 

Of course there are bad officials as there are bad players but because 1 ref has a bad game does not mean that we are all like that. I am sure my performances go up and down just the same as players form goes up and down.

 

Indeed, but it appears from I have heard by away supporters that certain officials repeatedly perform badly, so these people should be looked at with more scrunity.

 

The real problem is that there are not enough officials and really that is no surprise. How many of the players on this forum will take up the whistle when they pack up playing ? A genuine question that I think will be very low. Same as the professional game. Refs don't understand the game blah blah. Well how many ex pros become refs. Virtually none because they know who hard and thankless the job is. I know it is. Officials get abuse from Players, supporters and club officials alike, but if you are providing a service you should be giving your best, not just be there to collect money and go home which is how it feels watchign some officials , and I am not just talking about this league either.

 

Oh and finally do you really think the league should act on comments made on the forum. Yes. I do. If you are in charge of something you should be in touch with how ALL users of your service/industry/company or whatever view what you do. remeber word of mouth praise goes further than a article in a paper or newsletter. Same goes in football, if you see that people are dissatisfied with the performance of an official week in week out then there must be something wrong. If a member of mangement committee etc. sees that Mr.A . Official has been to three games and got thing amazingly wrong each time he need only go view himself the performance, and judge himself. People will stop watching if the situation arises where the games are being spoilt by insane decisions.

 

Already looking forward to the replies

 

I'd like to point out that yesterday an official cost many hundreds of people money and called off a game in the second half. Now the game will have to be replayed.

 

I'd like to see more players take on match officials roles on a course. It is hard being an official, and I have done it in the past. Due to work commitments, family and now injuries I cannot do it. Also I am fat LOL.

 

Krooner,

As you are a match official I would like to ask your opinion on a couple of thing. I am not being rude or anything as Croydon players are guilty of this too.

Recently a ref was standing next to a player and the player uttered the prase "F... you c..." to another playernot in his own team. Yet he too no action. Moments later another player uttered the same phrase and again the ref did nothing. yet when a lineo allowed a clearly offside attack go through and the the away teams defender shouted "Come on lineo, catch up you're missing these" and the man flagged and the ref spoke to the player. I NEED to point out that the defender was NOT a Croydon player. He was right the Croydon forward was offside and the lineo was way behind the play. So the defender was right and had not sworn, yet the defender was wrongly spoken to.

 

Secondly, and finally, Do you not get sick and tired of players swearing, of f... or you f... c... when they miss kick a ball. I use foul language like 90% of men (and now women) in the world. I am so sick of the copious amounts of foul language that goes on. At a recent match we had ball boys (I know a luxury) and it's not a good influance on the younger players of the future.

 

Thanks mate for the response.

[pearcey no.1]

I referee at this level and I do my best and give what I see. I give a throw in which is wrong and I get all manner of grief from bench, players and fans.

 

Quite right too Kroons! :dance (2):

 

Seriously though, I agree with most of what you say. I wouldn't be a ref or a linesman in a million years. Thankless task and i'm just grateful someone is willing to do it!

Trs greenfingers and you krooner great points,well made and I completly agree the only player to talk to the ref should be the captain,the manager should air his veiws at ht or ft.

[Lensmeister]

Be be brutally honest .......

 

CCL, KL and this level officials tend to be what Fergusson would say - unfit.

 

 

That's two match touch-line ban for you then, Lennsy !!

 

:coffee (2):

Probably.... But as I have always said. EVERYONE has opinions but mine are the right ones .... LOL

 

Seriously, This is an open forum, we all see games differently. Personally the standard of match officials are going down not up. Krooner I have yet to meet, so I cannot say if he is good or bad, (Watching out for him now ... camera in hand and a notebook too ) But he at least admits he is a ref.

 

But be honest. How many unfit are there and how many other look uninterested are there?

 

The BEST referee is one that you never remember for the entire game. Being in control for minute one is essential. Ok brandishing a flag for a slight tackle isn't required but to get the offending player to one side and tell him you won't put up with it and therefore showing that to the rest of the players makes them take note.

 

One ref in the Sussex league I saw once stopped play in about the 3rd minute, called all the players (except the keepers) to the middle and told them that if he saw a tackle like that again then they'd be seeing red .... it worked! ... not one booking and a damn fine game of football ensued.

[Lensmeister]

 

 

There are no easy answers in an era when so much of our behaviour / responses are “learned” from what we see on the telly but I would support a rule change so that only captains can talk to referees in terms of contesting decisions.

 

That's VERY good idea, one I wholehartedly agree with. Maybe the powers that be in the CCL can take the lead in this and set an example. Then officials won't be surrounded by the angry players who have screwed up and let the opposition score.

[Smudge]

Have been doing a little research myself into this subject,I have found out that Refs for Premier Games get £7 more expenses per game,than their Div 1 counterparts.That there are 45 Referees on the Combined Counties Panel,so would this mean that 15 per weekend were not wanted,or would they run a line somewhere.And in answer to the question do Refs read this forum,the answer is yes,Kroons for 1,and Mr Wells did last week, as he intimated to me yesterday.But as I have stated elsewhere all 3 Officials had excellent games,with the Referee applying a bit of common sense on 2 Occassions,that other Refs,would of gone straight for a card.Why because he talked to players and had their respect.I believe myself that the Clubs are more to blame,than the players,reason to scared or cannot be bothered with all the paperwork involved to complain to the League.Did Croydon for example mark the Ref down and complain,on either of Lensmeisters opinions of Refs for Municipal/Camberley games.I think I know the answer.

 

 

[Lensmeister]

I believe myself that the Clubs are more to blame,than the players,reason to scared or cannot be bothered with all the paperwork involved to complain to the League.Did Croydon for example mark the Ref down and complain,on either of Lensmeisters opinions of Refs for Municipal/Camberley games.I think I know the answer.

 

This is my point. Some club officials may not wish to be seen to "rock the boat", or be bothered to complain as it won't get them anywhere.

 

 

Even at kids team levels if you give the ref a low score you have to fill out forms and I have heard managers say "the ref was rubbish but give him the minimum mark as I can't be bothered to fill in the paperwork and nothing will be done anyway!"

 

Is it time for a 4th official and an assessor at EVERY game ?

[Smudge]

I believe myself that the Clubs are more to blame,than the players,reason to scared or cannot be bothered with all the paperwork involved to complain to the League.Did Croydon for example mark the Ref down and complain,on either of Lensmeisters opinions of Refs for Municipal/Camberley games.I think I know the answer.

 

This is my point. Some club officials may not wish to be seen to "rock the boat", or be bothered to complain as it won't get them anywhere.

 

 

Even at kids team levels if you give the ref a low score you have to fill out forms and I have heard managers say "the ref was rubbish but give him the minimum mark as I can't be bothered to fill in the paperwork and nothing will be done anyway!"

 

Is it time for a 4th official and an assessor at EVERY game ?

 

 

3 answers 1)Firstly do not moan 2)Complain 3)Post on here,because I think Kroons carries weight,not only by the burgers he is reputed to eat, but within the C.C.L.Worked this week anyway as Farleigh and Hartley would agree