From the KM about the meeting last night

[Sonny1]

Operating beyond one's means.

[margateshot]

Two facts I forgot to mention is that the budget has been cut by half this season and the money coming in from the lottery, which has just announced an increase in prize money, supposedly meaning that revenue has increased.

[ronks41]

I'm pretty sure financial control, in todays football climate, is almost irrelevant. The continuous and always over-riding factors for those watching are quality football, high as possible in the league and consistantly good performance equaling potential promotion. This is all supporter driven and therefor ultimately cost impactive. When the stuff hits the fan and nothing comes of the support given for a season combined with the high expectations, as with last season apparently,again comeing to nothing, players leave,management changes,and players and performances do not meet expectations yet again. The club then carry debts incurred from the last one or two seasons having tried to buy success and promotion.Also along the way supporters fall away due to a combination of lack of quality on the pitch,poor league position and the club being in so much debt................A circle that will never be squared I'm afraid.

 

It doesnt matter which club is in this situation the cenario will have been the same.Take comfort, if possible, that there are several dozen yet to become apparent from almost every league out there. It's going to come down to who has the most loyal players and supporters to work with the club owners and give unswerveing support to ensure suvival.

[jaykee]

Are Dover F.C one the creditors?

[Jeff Hamnett TSF]

I'm pretty sure financial control, in todays football climate, is almost irrelevant.

 

ronks are you bonkers?

[Jeff Hamnett TSF]

Originally Posted By: Number6

I dont understand how Mr Piper says "My family have agreed to pay

[ronks41]

If you are asking as a 'spurs' fan then it may not be as I stated. It applies more to non league status. As of todays 'non-league' paper headlines. There are so many lower placed clubs in financial turmoil due to the economy and historical aspirations to acheive beyond the realms of possiblity due to their financial positions. No I'm not bonkers as you stated just someone who can see that the 'state of The Gate' is typical and becomes irrelevant due to so many other factors compared with survival.As a fan you cant have ya cake and eat it.If you still dont follow I'll be happy to elaborate.

 

[Ian_Sanderson]

Originally Posted By: jaykee

Are Dover F.C one the creditors?

OUCH !!!

[Leedsclive]

Non-league clubs living beyond their means is not a new thing (Colne Dynamoes etc) but techncially most football clubs, including many in the football league are insolvent. The assets must be at least equal to liabilities and most clubs' paper assets are things like football grounds that only have value when used as a football ground. If you own your own ground, and could sell it for development and move to a new site with the necessary facilities then all well and good but not many are in that happy position.

Also, few would rate as a going concern. So technically, many clubs are trading illegally as a limited company and if the courts took a hard line could shut a lot down tomorrow.

But local football teams aren't normal businesses which is why I think there should be a law passed on the American model which recognises sport as a special case and so is allowed to have businesses which don't operate under the same rules as commercial companies. This would allow a rule limiting foreign players for example.

But the key thing is, like the economy in its widest sense, it all runs on trust and credit. If creditors get nervous and start demanding their money back, the whole structure of non-league football could collapse. Margate may well be the first of many to find themselves starting as an amateur team from scratch. Would it be so terrible to revert to the 50s and have a strong county league with the likes of Dover, Folkestone, Maidstone, Ramsgate etc playing as amateur teams with local players and no debt?

[Hempstead Gaz]

That's a reasonable shout, Clive, but I don't think there are many kent clubs prepared to drop to "amateur" level again, having tasted what life is like as part or full time.

I don't think too many fans would be impressed paying money to see what would effectively be Kent league football.

Certainly most whilst clubs have tried to buy success, few succeed.

The only natural way forward is regionalised football - from the Kent league right through the BSP to the Championship.

It's plain daft expecting Barrow fans to travel to Ebbsfleet or vice-versa. then Weymouth on the Tuesday.

 

[Jeff Hamnett TSF]

Originally Posted By: ronks41

If you are asking as a 'spurs' fan then it may not be as I stated. It applies more to non league status. As of todays 'non-league' paper headlines. There are so many lower placed clubs in financial turmoil due to the economy and historical aspirations to acheive beyond the realms of possiblity due to their financial positions. No I'm not bonkers as you stated just someone who can see that the 'state of The Gate' is typical and becomes irrelevant due to so many other factors compared with survival.As a fan you cant have ya cake and eat it.If you still dont follow I'll be happy to elaborate.

 

to be honest I dont follow what you are saying, regarding finances being irrelevant.

 

I also apologise for asking if you were bonkers ronks, very rude of me, sorry for that.

[Coffin Ender]

Hempstead Gaz, regionalisation is not the answer - the money that clubs save from not travelling long distances will just go on wages. Football clubs have always lived beyond their means and always will.

[Hempstead Gaz]

Agreed, C E , but regionalisation should mean that more fans can travel to aways games too, meaning larger gates, especially with a few more "local derbies".

It's really about living with your means - a thing we may well have to face come February when 30,000 members do not re-enlist.

Our CEO and Chairman are already planning for that possibility, which IMO is a very sensible course of action.

Good luck, I will be watching your news with keen interest.

 

Gaz

[ronks41]

I mean that finances, and the management of, go out the window because of pressure on the club to obtain promotion and continued success. It's irrelelvant to a large degree to those holding the purse-strings because they will damned if they concentrate on preferential creditors(tax etc)to the cost of quality players and therefor higher wages that they cannot afford.They are damned also if they pay good money for better players(supposedly better)and acheive promotion/play-offs and some cup runs and then not be able to pay creditors. This is always governed by bums on seats or feet on concrete.

 

Maybe the term'irrelevant' is not as accurate as 'futile'. By which I mean that they will always be in a no-win situation. Supporters, for the most part, are only prepared to pay good money week in week out to see good football. Thats human nature.The clubs in quesstion, inc the Gate, would need 5 or 6 hundred at every home game to survive based on their current commitments. That aint gonna happen until they get to playoffs at least, and not even guaranteed then.They will always trade insolvently on their current structure of income and expenditure. Therefor trying to maintain a healthy or well proportioned balance sheet is again..........futile.

 

By the way no offence taken about being bonkers. My point wasnt well made in the first place, and probably still isnt, and my family say worse than that about me all the time so I'm used to it!!

[michael]

You're spot on Ronks-in fairness to the directors-damned if they do -and damned if they don't.

 

That given, whilst it may not be working(yet) is'nt the idea of initially the 5-a-sides-and if/when/whatever-the remainder of the commercial development an attempt to circumvent the club continually trading insolvently;and thus be self-financing.

 

It was also intimated io believe a month or so ago-that the 5-a -sides were starting to 'bear fruit'.

 

I guess the other quality us supporters-need is patience.

 

If we do come through this -in 2 years time, it may be that we are one of the most financially stable clubs in a complete rondabout turn

[Jeff Hamnett TSF]

thanks ronks, I see what youre saying better now.

 

Its not that finance in football is irrelevant, its that many clubs and chairman run too big a risk with the clubs finances chasing a dream, and that they often claim to be doing it for the supporters. Heroes when alls well, villains when shylock turns up.

 

Those that run their clubs prudently within their means are criticised by the fans for not getting the chequebook out.

 

I dont think sensible finance management is futile, irrelevant , football folly or whatever I think it's essential. Much better have the fans criticise for not getting promoted, even relegated if there is a next season guaranteed, than the terrible situation you guys now face.

 

Lets hope Margate survive and other clubs look and learn, good luck.

[michael]

I don't think it works in our favour all this stuff being in the national spotlight at the moment.

 

I just hope we are not the minnow that its decided to make an example of

 

 

here's a bit more:

 

the amounts at the bottom are interesting:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7741859.stm