Collateral Damage...!!

[The Invisible Man]

I rather thought the idea was to minimise CIVILIAN casulaties, not "Iraqi lives". I am fairly confident that id someone points a weapon, or appears to so doing, he or she will be "taken out" as some correspondents so colourfully put it. There is little or no military advantage in killing or injuring non-combatants.

 

But then we're all big hard men who know just how to do it, two and a half thousand miles away, aren't we?

 

What are all these references to left wing loonies and Guardianistas? How would you like to called a Nazi thug?

[Ofiicial]

you do rather seem to haved missed the whole point.....

 

don't worry though...you've declared your colours quite clearly with your last paragraph......

[AFF]

Hi Official. Late night?

 

I've re-read this thread and re-appraised the position in the light of 'news' over the past few days. I have a bad feeling that you will get your wish, O.

 

I suspect that the two lunatics will increasingly recognise that, for political and economic reasons, nothing to do with morality, of course, they cannot sustain a war running into many months.

 

The antipated surender of the bulk of the Iraqi army and the general uprising of the people against the most dangerous man on the planet [that's Saddam, of course, not Bush] does not appear to have materialised.

 

Militarily, I remember the view that war had to begin late February/early March as, apparently, it gets hot in Iraq in the Summer. As an aside, by the way, why did 1000 troops parachute into Kurdish-controlled Northern Iraq and 'secure' an airfield? Why not land 3 no. 747's at the airfield and accept the hospitality of the Kurds who are supposed to be on 'our' side?

 

Contrary to his statements at the outbreak of war that the U.N. would be invited to clean up the mess following the glorious victory to supervise the return of the country to the Iraqi people, it would seem that Bush intends for there to be some kind of U.S. control over Iraq once the declared aims have been realised.

 

I suspect that Tone has realised, and Bush will shortly realise, that the Allies have already lost the peace.

 

Put that lot together and the option of doing it your way, Official, is likely to appear increasingly, shall we say, least unattractive.

 

 

[Rob_the_Saint]

The 'gentlemanly' approach to war doesn't seem to be working - how soon before we see the 'real' weapons of mass destruction, the cluster bombs and the cruise missiles, used to soften up the cities before the ground forces invade.

[Ofiicial]

Morning all......they're all late nights unfortunately...our business tends to run at contrary hours to normal folk....no matter....we start late as well.....

 

as we get deeper into this I will declare my colours with regard to the actual invasion of Iraq itself...I was wholly against it...not because of my sons involvement but because it never really stacked up did it....we still do not appear to have found any weapons of 'mass destruction'...truth is there probably aren't any other than a few old mustard bombs and a couple of research labs with some germ warhead development taking place....we'll see....

 

my view has always been that the yanks had an alterior motive which was to establish an american led 'residency' in the region to attempt a future 'democratic westernisation' of the Arab badlands....there is no doubt that the duplicitous Saudis are the real 'bankers' to Islamic terrorist organisations...nice for the 'peacekeeping' Bush administration to settle in amongst them all.......Peter Foster...(aka 'our Tone')...has just naively gone along with it all.....

 

I digress of course....back to the original mandate on the thread.....unfortunately it does look increasingly like an American 'Gary Owen' clusterfcku and that is..unfortunately...the only way to mitigate casualties on both sides....in the next few days..once the intrusive press have been reduced to censored coverage at least three days old....we shall see the 'unmitigated' carpet bombing of the Baghdad perimeters and also the 'selective' raising to the ground of targets inside Baghdad itself.....sad to say...that is the only way that Baghdad can be taken without enormnous Allied and Iraqi casualties and therefore must happen....

 

As to the airfield in Kurd held territories...I agree with you but it probably has something to do with the fact that the only way to get those 747's would have been up from the Gulf and that perhaps would have offered the Iraqi air defences to much of a tempting target......

 

The future peace is non existent I am afraid to say...there will not be a peace....only increased Islamic fury at the 'Infidel' presence in their cherished lands.......which will in turn lead to reprisals for occupying forces too horrific to contemplate.....

 

We are in to deep to turn back now....my original point was that we should accept that...regardless of the rights or wrongs of the whole issue.....blast the place to a standstill...(thereby ensuring the maximum safety of our ground forces) achieve the objective (stated) of toppling the nasty old dictator and his 'thugs' and get the fcku out of Dodge......

 

Incidentally....nice to see our French 'Allies' now fully supoportive of a 'coalition' interim government...including the French of course....and...just for good measure to liven you all up on this sunny Friday....who's watching the 'invading Turkish hoardes' whilst all this is going on.....they've got an excellent human rights record with the Kurds have they not.....

[AFF]

Morning to you. O.

 

You may be interested to see the following posting taken from a message posted by a good man on our site.

 

"A SECRET blueprint for US global domination reveals that President Bush and his cabinet were planning a premeditated attack on Iraq to secure 'regime change' even before he took power in January 2001.

The blueprint, uncovered by the Sunday Herald, for the creation of a 'global Pax Americana' was drawn up for Dick Cheney (now vice- president), Donald Rumsfeld (defence secretary), Paul Wolfowitz (Rumsfeld's deputy), George W Bush's younger brother Jeb and Lewis Libby (Cheney's chief of staff). The document, entitled Rebuilding America's Defences: Strategies, Forces And Resources For A New Century, was written in September 2000 by the neo-conservative think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC).

 

The plan shows Bush's cabinet intended to take military control of the Gulf region whether or not Saddam Hussein was in power. It says: 'The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein.'

 

The PNAC document supports a 'blueprint for maintaining global US pre-eminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests'.

 

This 'American grand strategy' must be advanced for 'as far into the future as possible', the report says. It also calls for the US to 'fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous major theatre wars' as a 'core mission'.

 

The report describes American armed forces abroad as 'the cavalry on the new American frontier'. The PNAC blueprint supports an earlier document written by Wolfowitz and Libby that said the US must 'discourage advanced industrial nations from challenging our leadership or even aspiring to a larger regional or global role'.

 

The PNAC report also:

 

l refers to key allies such as the UK as 'the most effective and efficient means of exercising American global leadership';

 

l describes peace-keeping missions as 'demanding American political leadership rather than that of the United Nations';

 

l reveals worries in the administration that Europe could rival the USA;

 

l says 'even should Saddam pass from the scene' bases in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait will remain permanently -- despite domestic opposition in the Gulf regimes to the stationing of US troops -- as 'Iran may well prove as large a threat to US interests as Iraq has';

 

l spotlights China for 'regime change' saying 'it is time to increase the presence of American forces in southeast Asia'. This, it says, may lead to 'American and allied power providing the spur to the process of democratisation in China';

 

l calls for the creation of 'US Space Forces', to dominate space, and the total control of cyberspace to prevent 'enemies' using the internet against the US;

 

l hints that, despite threatening war against Iraq for developing weapons of mass destruction, the US may consider developing biological weapons -- which the nation has banned -- in decades to come. It says: 'New methods of attack -- electronic, 'non-lethal', biological -- will be more widely available ... combat likely will take place in new dimensions, in space, cyberspace, and perhaps the world of microbes ... advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool';

 

l and pinpoints North Korea, Libya, Syria and Iran as dangerous regimes and says their existence justifies the creation of a 'world-wide command-and-control system'.

 

Tam Dalyell, the Labour MP, father of the House of Commons and one of the leading rebel voices against war with Iraq, said: 'This is garbage from right-wing think-tanks stuffed with chicken-hawks -- men who have never seen the horror of war but are in love with the idea of war. Men like Cheney, who were draft-dodgers in the Vietnam war.

 

'This is a blueprint for US world domination -- a new world order of their making. These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world. I am appalled that a British Labour Prime Minister should have got into bed with a crew which has this moral standing.'"

 

A couple of thoughts for you;

 

a). O.K. I see your point about the 747's. However, they jumped from troop carrying planes, didn't they? Why not just land them and get off the thing the easy way.

 

. There are Shi'ite's in the South of Iraq and Kurds in the North, as well as a number of other tribes scattered throughout the country, not forgetting the Ba'ath tribe of Saddam. I wonder if they are familiar with the concept of one man, one vote, and, thus are looking forward to future democracy.

 

It's re-assuring that there have never been problems of internal unrest caused folowing victory in wars in history.

 

The two lunatics will, no doubt, have thought all that stuff through before this thing started.

 

What do I know about anything?

 

 

 

[Ofiicial]

cor blimey AFF...thats a table full of food for feasting on...I'll have to ponder this new slant to the thread and get back later.....

[Big J R]

Mornin' all

Just to refer back to Northern Iraq, Air-fields, the Kurds AND the Turks.

 

This could well prove to be a stumbling block, or a big fly in the Arabic Ointment. Remember, the Turks blocked the US from using Turkey, hence the Airborne. The Turks really DO have their own adgenda, which would not please our American allies. As Official said, "who's watching the 'invading Turkish hoardes' whilst all this is going on.....they've got an excellent human rights record with the Kurds have they not..... "

 

We should be more worried about what the Turks actually have in mind. Remember Cyprus ?

 

[Ofiicial]

right then....

 

not much to say really with regard to the main issues in your post AFF....speaks volumes for itself.....the PNAC report that you refer to I am vaguely familiar with in terms of its exsistence but your enhancement of that vague familiarity is somewhat thought provoking I have to admit.......does however fall mainly in line with my own views on the American 'agenda' in the middle east and the rest of the world thats for sure.....scary really.....

 

as for Dalyells denouncement of the whole thing as being instigated by 'chicken hawks' ...hmmmm....maybe...maybe not........

 

like his line though about Blair getting into bed with people of such 'low moral standing'.......................you obviously have not heard about the rumours emanating from Whitehall sources surrounding 'Queenie' Cherie....Carol (whiplash) Caplin and 'Tone's alter ego Peter Foster at the Ritz Hotel a few months back......great stuff.....if our 'Tone does indeed like a bit of 'low moral standing' at bedtime...he's been keeping the right company......

 

North Korea....Iran....Syria.....Libya.....maybe...add China....Indonesia...(more muslims than in any other country and troublesome as well)....it goes on and on and on......the best way to keep the global peace....leave 'em all alone....stop 'em all from coming into our own country and as an afterthought...do something about the unprecedented crime levels here as well....(bit boring that for our 'Tone...not enough Global input).......however I digress......

 

do also agree with Big JR...the Turks will prove troublesome in this conflict.......the heavy hand of 'US aid withdrawel' may well come into play soonest......the Turks have always been a nuisance in middle eastern affairs going right back to the times of the Great Pharoes of Ancient Egypt.......

 

just one last thought with a wry smile on my cherubic fizz'og....like the idea about 'specifically targeted genotypes' that can be taken out with biological weapons......does that mean that we can obtain the DNA for our most serious footie rivals and then wipe 'em all out....he he he...no more wealdstone hoardes.....

 

come to think about it that really wouldn't do would it....we'd have no one to take the p*** out of.......!!!!!!

 

great stuff chaps......

[Ofiicial]

morning chaps...back onto this one again...forgive the new photo by the way.....it was sent to me by the local constabulary who insist it was me speeding through the essex countryside....they waived the fine when I gave them the passengers phone number...!!!

 

anyway....trying to read between the lines of the scratchy info that comes my way at the weekends...it would appear that the carpet bombing of Iraqi Republican Guard divisions has begun in earnest and Coalition Commanders are confident that by the end of the week the push into Baghdad will be possible without heavy Allied casualties....hmmmm.......bit sceptical about that one but we'll see....

 

most worring is the Northern aspect of the whole thing as we predicted last week....Kurdish troops are now approaching Kirkuk...(along with several US para regiments) and the Turks thremselves are taking up heavy positioning not only on their side of the border but...it would seem.... across it as well.....probably only the presence of other US troops preventing them from making a serious issue of the situation....

 

all very worrying of course...

 

on other matters several more items of chemical warfare bric a brac have been discovered in Nasariya and Najaf.....non of which appears to point towards collossal amounts of WMD stockpiled anywhere but we'll no doubt have to wait and see with that one as well.....

 

Bush and Blair announce not only the reinforcement of Coalition tropps with more regiments being sent to the region but ...most alarming of all......'The troops will be changed in due course'......great stuff....what that actually means is that this whole affair will now go on for some considerable time....

 

can't understand the coalition inability to take out the Iraqi television stations.....either they don't want to or the cruise missiles being used for this task are not up to the job....strange one that.....would have thought that this was of prime importance.......

 

lastly... the mood of the Coalition troops has most certainly changed.....there is no doubt that the Iraqis are now firmly viewed as 'a dangerous enemy'...little comfort there then for any civilians genuinely wishing to get out of harms way....

 

from the allied troops viewpoint....well...can't blame them really...if you are unsure of who the enemy is....everyone gets it I suppose....self preservation will always prevail through fear.....

 

still of the same views...get it done and get out.......

 

 

 

 

[Rodders]

Quote:

Friendly Fire ?

Its been around in all wars since time started. I'm afraid S*IT happens, as they say.

More previlant it seems wars that the yanks are involved in !!!!!!!

as for blue on blue ......I think that was a video I watched once !!!!!

Sorry this is supposed to be a serious thread

Rodders

[Slartibartfast]

Quote:

on other matters several more items of chemical warfare bric a brac have been discovered in Nasariya and Najaf.....non of which appears to point towards collossal amounts of WMD stockpiled anywhere but we'll no doubt have to wait and see with that one as well.....

I think what was actually said was that on overrunning an Iraqi camp several gas masks and some antidote syringes to counteract the effects of nerve gas were discovered, this is clearly the " smoking gun " that Blair/Bush have been looking for and clear proof that Iraq not only possesses weapons of mass destruction but is about to use them.
Of course if anyone was to look in any of the coalition camps they would see the same gas masks and syringes and every coalition soldier is required to carry them at all times in fact even the reporters have them.
Unfortunately there are so many lies and so much spin going on in the reporting of this war that none of us will ever no the truth about it.

[Big J R]

Official:

Did you see that news footage of an arab girl/woman sitting in the back of a pick-up truck waving a white flag. The the driver/passenger opened up with firearms ?

 

I'm afraid the time has come to hit anything that remotely moves !! Sad, though that may be !!

[Ofiicial]

I didn't see it no...but today we have the first reports of coalition troops opening fire on and killing seven apparently innocent iraqi citizens at a checkpoint......'as you sow so shall you reap' comes to mind....as tragic as it is....this will continue to happen as the allied forces seek to protect themselves.....once the Iraqi military decided to go 'civilian'...there was only going to be one outcome....

 

there is of course a safe option for the Iraqi citizens....keep away from the troops and stay indoors which they are all apparently being instructed to do....if they approach the troops and the checkpoints...they now run the risk of being fired upon.....right or wrong.....well....a true story...

 

three national service conscripts in the namibian desert ....all 18 years of age....frightened...poorly trained...in territory frequented by cuban mercenaries stationed in angola....no radio communication and waiting to be picked up the following morning to return to base camp....dark as hell itself as only the desert can be and all of a sudden noises...human noises....they panic and open fire and wait...nothing happens but the noise stops....they lie low for the night without sleep..in the morning they are collected and investigate the area that they fired into and find one dead sheep herder with three dead sheep.....moral...there isn't one really....fear was the key to their reactions...self preservation the only thing in their minds....more civilians.... by the thousand probably.... will die the same way before this is over....

 

most of these troops are young and in battle for the first time.....they'll fire at anything that moves......can't blame 'em really...they all want to make sure that they go home....

 

only two of those national servicemen went home.....

[AFF]

It's difficult to find anything that raises half a smile but....

 

On the early morning T.V. 'News'24 hour thing today, the reporter was interviewing an Iraqi in one of the towns near Basra. The Iraqi had his back to the camera.

 

"If you were a policeman, and Saddam was brought into your police station, what would you do?", was the Brit's final question.

 

"I would cut him into 50 pieces" was the reply.

 

I didn't know whether it was Rory Bremner or an excerpt from 'Carry On Up The Khyber' or even, 'Indiana Jones'.

 

[sigh]

 

[Ofiicial]

Its all very predictable really.....I thought that the gloves may come off sooner rather than later and there is no doubt that its a free for all now.....the friendly fire casualties are frightening in their percentage terms against total fatalaties....Iraqi casualties....try 20,000 and you won't be far off.....

 

I suppose it will all come out in the end.....the yanks seem to have gone right at it in the last few days and the discipline of the british troops in and around basra is remarkable considering the conditions....lets hope that its all over with by the end of this week....(bit optimistic I suppose).....

 

you're right AFF....very little to smile about......

[AFF]

Hi O.

 

I have no doubt you will recall my suggestion 10 days ago that the two lunatics would recognise that they have lost the peace already, take off the gloves, topple Saddam, leave the chaos to the U.N. and get the hell out of there.

 

Unfortunately, whether or not I was right about the first part, it would seem that Bush is ready to instal some form of Governor/Consul/Whatever and stay!

 

Completely barking.

 

Whenever this lot is 'over', it's just the beginning.

[Ofiicial]

Hi AFF....trust you won on Saturday....

 

Just sitting watching the amazing pictures from inside Saddams Palace in Basra....mind boggling....absolutely stunning.....tens of millions and never lived in......wonder how much they want for it....!!!!.....

 

anyway...most worring is the Northern position....the Turkish PM has indicated this morning that his troops will move into Iraq to 'protect the Northern oilfields' from the Kurds.....having already given undertakings to the 'Bush Gang' not to....another extortion attempt...lets hope so.....

 

of course this lot are more duplicitous than the rest of 'em put together and I've always believed that their agenda was somewhat hidden and ultimately could prove a major danger to anything that may of may not develop after the guns have stopped firing....

 

what price they've already had a hand in some of the blue on blue incidents....Russian envoys perhaps.....well there aint no Iraqi planes in the air are there and the yanks are in full denial....so....we'll see....

 

most amazing thing of all so far.....the Iraqi Information Minister trotting his stuff on Iraqi television......

 

cor blimey.....he should support Wealdstone.....blind faith....

 

[Colin Zeal EFM]

Quote:

Hi AFF....trust you won on Saturday....

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[Ofiicial]

sorry boys....a genuine error...I hadn't seen the results.....!

 

I wasn't trying to be clever....